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Okay. Honestly, after this many posts, I would think your questions about the confederate flag would have been answered by now. But, since some seem either unable or unwilling to answer these specific questions you have laid out in the post above, I will do so.
Some people have provided good insight. Others have just offered gaslighting posts and the same old denial tactics.
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First: Why do most black people, despite their southern heritage, not identify with the Confederate flag?
Answer: That's simple. I'd say first and foremost, the Confederate flag was and is the battle flag of the Confederacy, a group of states who tried to leave the Union in order to defend the rights of the states to govern themselves rather than allow the federal government to rule over all. Of course, as we all know, the straw that broke the camel's back and brought on this war was the intention of the government to end slavery. I only mention the part about "state's rights" because that is an argument often brought up when the Civil War is being discussed. Regardless, in the end, it was truly about certain states wishing to continue to own, purchase, and profit off of slave labor. And the Confederate flag represents the views/ideals of the leaders and citizens of those states at that time. So, knowing what we know about the war and the flag, how on earth could any black man/woman in the United States look upon that flag with anything but disdain? Now, please understand, I am not saying that means the Confederate flag should be banned, or that all people who do support the flying of that flag are automatically racists or anything like that. But as for black people, I just don't see how any of them could "identify" with the Confederate flag. I know many people say the flag is all about "Heritage, not Hate" but for black people, I imagine all they see is the hate.
That is same meaning for me. I see it and all I can see is hate. Even if the person wearing a Confederate flag t-shirt doesn't come off as hateful, I don't see much else other than hate. One reason I don't get the whole "it's about southern pride" or "southern heritage" deal.
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Second: Why do more white southerners per capita identify with the Confederate flag compared to black people?
Answer: I'd say the answer is probably included in my answer to the first question above. However, as for the white people who still cling to the flag, for most, I believe it is how they were raised to perceive the flag. I live in the south, and I honestly only know a couple of people who possess a Confederate flag. And I think you will find that most people who fly the flag do not do so out of some love for southern history or a desire to relive the past or hope that "the south will rise again". Most people who fly the Confederate flag do so because it gives them a sense of power. They know if they fly that flag they are going to upset/anger untold numbers of people, and frankly some people get off on that. Honestly, I think if you really did the legwork to research this subject first hand, you would find what I've said to be true. Most white people who actually fly that flag do it to mess with other people. They enjoy knowing they are affecting other people's lives simply by flying a piece of fabric in the air.
I live in the South (I live about 30-33 miles west of Atlanta. Alabama can be reached from my house within 1 hour. Where I went to high school, there were several people who wore Confederate flag t-shirts. My high school banned them one year. More kids than ever wore those shirts to school. Some kids got in trouble, but kept wearing them anyway. Eventually the principal gave up enforcing that rule.
I've grown up hearing people say "it's about southern heritage". I never understood it. I do agree with you that it gives some people a feeling of power. I always suspected that some people know better but choose to do things that aren't smart. The question is this. Why do some persons feel like flying the Confederate flag with the expressed purpose of angering people? What is the end goal?
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I think I've probably answered all your questions within my two statements above.
You did a better job than some people have done. Some people have given some good answers. Some people do nothing but gaslight and act stupid. At least you try to give some good insight.
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But now, I have one question for you. Why do you believe there is a large cultural disconnect down racial lines in the South? Do you actually live in the South? I only ask because I have lived in the South my entire life. And this line you seem to think exists between blacks and whites here does not, in fact, exist. For the most part, black and white people here in the south coexist without any tension over the color of our skin. Of course, there is and always will be a cultural divide between different kinds of people no matter where you go. I mean come on, look at New York City. It seems like every other race/nationality has their own couple of city blocks in that town. A place where similar people can congregate together, while also allowing outsiders the chance to come in and see what they are all about. The South is no different than any other place in this country. The problem is, just as some people like to hang on to that flag, other people want to hang on to the stigma surrounding it. And that bleeds all over the good people in the South who just want the past to be the past, so we can all look to the future together
I will answer. As mentioned, I live in South. I'm in the state of Georgia. Downtown Atlanta is 34 miles west of where I currently live. The Georgia/Alabama border can be reached from my house in about 50 minutes (via Interstate 20). I should have made it more clear. The city of Atlanta (or Charlotte and Nashville) are going to be different from some of outerlying areas. In Atlanta proper, I never see the Confederate flag. Cobb County, Gwinnett, I hardly ever see it. I get out into areas like Haralson County, Paulding County, I will see it. I took a trip to Nashville. Plenty of country music around. I never saw any Confederate flags flown (not in the city proper).
When I speak of a divide between Blacks and Whites, I'm specifically referring to the Confederate flag and how some individuals identify with their southern heritage. The divide about the Confederate flag looms large. There should be a symbol that UNITES people, not divide. I would say the south is a mixed bag. I dealt with racial tension in high school. However, I have also seem some good things down here.
I'm a Southern native with family that has lived in the region since the 1700's. Yes, I also had ancestors who fought in the Civil War on the Confederate side.
I moved away from the South about 20 years ago but when I did live there my experiences and observations of the people who either flew, displayed, or supported the Confederate flag was that they were almost always from the working poor, had low levels of education, and were in many cases classic racists.
I just find it interesting that there are those whom claim its over their pride of being southern or whatever when there are so many other things, such as music, cuisine, art, culture and so on that are cherished around the world that originated in the South that express "Southern pride" way better than a ugly flag with a racist past.
I am descended from slaves on both sides of my family. By virtue of that history, most of my ancestors have been in the South probably since the 1700s. I have a little bit of non-Black ancestry (some Native American, French, Irish) thrown in, but mostly African ancestry.
Many members of my father's side of the family (his parents included), were part of the Great Migration. My father is a born and raised northerner. My mother is born and raised southerner. I have lived in the South and the Western USA. Hearing about "southern heritage" growing up, it threw me off to see someone from outside of the South flying the Confederate flag or identifying with it. However, I do see some of what you saw in terms of those who flew the Confederate flag. I notice some of the persons who fly the Confederate flag have low levels of education, part of the working poor (or working class), and in a few cases, openly racist.
I've said this before. There are many things the South can be proud of. Blues, jazz, bluegrass, country, that music developed in the South. Musicians from the South include Louis Armstrong, Elvis Presley, BB King, Jimmy Buffett, Ray Charles, The South can claim many literary successes: Tennessee Williams, John Kennedy Toole, Richard Wright, Eudora Welty, Wiliam Faulkner, John Grisham. Jimmy Buffett is not only a singer, he too wrote books. Home Depot, Chick-Fil-A, Coca-Cola, these are Atlanta-based companies. Some famous southern athletes include: Hank Aaron (Mobile,AL native and broke Babe Ruth's record as a member of the Atlanta Braves, in Atlanta), Chipper Jones (born in northern Florida, also an Atlanta Brave), Jerry Rice, Brett Favre, Willie Mays, Jim "Catfish" Hunter, Bo Jackson, Frank Thomas, Satchel Paige, Reggie White, Pee Wee Reese, Justin Verlander, etc.
I also think about this. Magnolia trees and sweetgum trees are very commonplace throughout the South. Those two trees could be a symbol of the southern USA due to their ubiquity. The Confederate flag is often chosen as a symbol of the South. A good symbol should represent everyone and be a uniting factor. The Confederate flag is not that symbol. Considering the stuff the South can be proud of, something more uniting should be a symbol of the South.
I am descended from slaves on both sides of my family. By virtue of that history, most of my ancestors have been in the South probably since the 1700s. I have a little bit of non-Black ancestry (some Native American, French, Irish) thrown in, but mostly African ancestry.
Many members of my father's side of the family (his parents included), were part of the Great Migration. My father is a born and raised northerner. My mother is born and raised southerner. I have lived in the South and the Western USA. Hearing about "southern heritage" growing up, it threw me off to see someone from outside of the South flying the Confederate flag or identifying with it. However, I do see some of what you saw in terms of those who flew the Confederate flag. I notice some of the persons who fly the Confederate flag have low levels of education, part of the working poor (or working class), and in a few cases, openly racist.
I've said this before. There are many things the South can be proud of. Blues, jazz, bluegrass, country, that music developed in the South. Musicians from the South include Louis Armstrong, Elvis Presley, BB King, Jimmy Buffett, Ray Charles, The South can claim many literary successes: Tennessee Williams, John Kennedy Toole, Richard Wright, Eudora Welty, Wiliam Faulkner, John Grisham. Jimmy Buffett is not only a singer, he too wrote books. Home Depot, Chick-Fil-A, Coca-Cola, these are Atlanta-based companies. Some famous southern athletes include: Hank Aaron (Mobile,AL native and broke Babe Ruth's record as a member of the Atlanta Braves, in Atlanta), Chipper Jones (born in northern Florida, also an Atlanta Brave), Jerry Rice, Brett Favre, Willie Mays, Jim "Catfish" Hunter, Bo Jackson, Frank Thomas, Satchel Paige, Reggie White, Pee Wee Reese, Justin Verlander, etc.
I also think about this. Magnolia trees and sweetgum trees are very commonplace throughout the South. Those two trees could be a symbol of the southern USA due to their ubiquity. The Confederate flag is often chosen as a symbol of the South. A good symbol should represent everyone and be a uniting factor. The Confederate flag is not that symbol. Considering the stuff the South can be proud of, something more uniting should be a symbol of the South.
No the Confederate flag is not chosen often. That's just something else you've made up in order to cover for your inability to get ahead while falsely playing the race card.
Again, what's your point? Blacks were expressly forbidden from serving as combat troops in the Confederacy until the last couple of weeks of the war. Almost 200,000 Blacks served in the Union Military, what does focusing on the relative handful of Confederates prove exactly?
The focus on the few "Black Confederates" that there were is a last gasp. The fact that slavery was a major reason the South wanted secession cannot be refuted. Rather than accept it for what it is, the next idea is to use the few Black confederates there were as a desperate bid to justify being pro-Confederate. Those few Black confederates do not prove that the Confederacy was any good for Black people. It does not prove that Confederate secession wasn't rooted in wanting to keep slavery. It was definitely rooted in that. Articles of Secession and the Confederate Constitution show this. A relatively small amount of Black confederates will not refute anything that was said. And the fact is, the majority of Blacks do not identify with the Confederate flag.
Acknowledging it might take more a tad more courage than some can muster.
I took some time to read that article. There are things that Matthew Foley and myself could talk about. There is so much the South can be proud of. The South gave the world musicians like Aretha Franklin, Elvis Presley, BB King, Ray Charles, Darius Rucker, Tim McGraw, Garth Brooks,etc. Writers such as Richard Wright, William Faulkner, Flannery O'Connor. Athletes such as Hank Aaron, Ron Guidry, Reggie White,etc. Magnolia trees are ubiquitous in the South. Anyone who drinks Coca-Cola, that comes from Atlanta. So much to be proud of in the South.
The writer makes a good point. The South has alot to be proud of. The Confederate cause isn't one of those things. Why make the Confederate cause a source of pride, especially when it's heavily rooted in the desire for keeping slavery?
Agree it's baffling. Even at its most extreme & untruthful, fr'instance all of the folks fighting for the Confederacy were African American people, the fact remains they were fighting for a country in which a universal right to own slaves was one of the most entrenched laws of the land.
It is disturbing, but it no longer surprises me. I expect some individuals to come up with that "Black confederates" argument. It's being done for the sake of saving face.
We could create better history if we admit to certain things instead of having this denial.
Wholeheartedly agree here. Too much energy is being spent on denying our shared history. Whether one's family 'came over on the Mayflower' or one just arrived here yesterday, we are all American. That is, if we want to be.
Too much energy is wasted on resisting history, what one resists, persists. Think of a cork in water: forcing that cork underwater takes too much energy & is unproductive, let it 'float to the top' & keep on sailing.
Stevie knows ...
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...I'm so glad that he let me try it again
'Cause my last time on earth I lived a whole world of sin
I'm so glad that I know more than I knew then
Gonna keep on tryin'
Till I reach my highest ground
An' Stevie knows that nobody's gonna bring me down
Till I reach the highest ground, 'cause me 'n' Stevie, see
We're gonna be a sailin' on the funky, funky sound (till I reach the highest ground)
Bustin' out and I'll break you out, 'cause I'm sailin' on
(Till I reach the highest ground)
Just sailin' on, sailin' on the higher ground (till I reach the highest ground)
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