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Actually, no. It doesn't hurt. I asked you to answer my question as I asked it. You refused. That tells me that you have a cowardly mindset. You put a red herring in there and I called you out on it. You are the one who is hurt because YOU keep deflecting. Focus on the topic or start your own thread.
This is the topic: Why do most Blacks, despite the majority of Blacks being southerners, not identify with the Confederate flag? Why are there more White southerners per capita identify with the Confederate flag compared to Blacks? Why Black American, most of whom have southern roots, not claiming the Confederate flag as part of their southern heritage? Why are there more negative reactions to the Confederate flag from Blacks compared to Whites? Why such a large cultural disconnect in the South along racial lines?
That is what I'm asking, that is what the topic is about. If you're not interested in it, move along and find another thread, or start your own thread.
It would be hard for me to believe anything else except lingering hatred. I think about the history of the South post-Civil War into the 1960s. It is hard for me to consider that there isn't some kind of hate, or at the least, some resentment.
If you're being taught better, being shown better, but you still choose to do wrong, that is on you. Maybe said persons don't personally hate me. However, there is still some attitudes that are slow to die out. If there is so much shame regarding slavery, why keep paying homage to those who fought to keep it? In France, there is a tendency to not mention Nazi collaborators. I notice this. No one utters Papon's name. No one is proud of him. There are such a deep shame that nowadays, no one insists on paying homage to him. I don't see much shame coming from individuals who fly the Confederate flag or honor Robert E. Lee. I don't that level of shame. I see a level of hardheadedness.
Shame might seem like a good theory. However, now it's morphing into individuals trying to say "well, slavery wasn't a bad thing". I'm seeing more people trying to save face.
It's 'Shame v. Shameless' so to speak?
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
This is the topic: Why do most Blacks, despite the majority of Blacks being southerners, not identify with the Confederate flag? Why are there more White southerners per capita identify with the Confederate flag compared to Blacks? Why Black American, most of whom have southern roots, not claiming the Confederate flag as part of their southern heritage? Why are there more negative reactions to the Confederate flag from Blacks compared to Whites? Why such a large cultural disconnect in the South along racial lines?
That is what I'm asking, that is what the topic is about. If you're not interested in it, move along and find another thread, or start your own thread.
Applied here ^ Black Southerners who do not identify with the Confederate flag experience shame when they consider the history of the Confederacy. It is not viewed with pride.
White Southerners who identify with the Confederate flag are shameless when they consider the history of the Confederacy. It is viewed with pride.
Applied here ^ Black Southerners who do not identify with the Confederate flag experience shame when they consider the history of the Confederacy. It is not viewed with pride.
White Southerners who identify with the Confederate flag are shameless when they consider the history of the Confederacy. It is viewed with pride.
Is this the basic idea?
That is where I'm coming from. With France, there is so much shame regarding Papon, no one says his name. No one wants to know his name. There are still many in the South who proudly and shamelessly claim Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, and Stonewall Jackson as their own. There is some shamelessness in the South.
There is a strong tendancy to downplay the role of slavery. Part of it could be shame. However, I think another big part of it is saving face. I think of it like this. Someone could have some very immmoral views, ugly views. Some people know they are supporting something that represents an ugly cause. The goal is to save face. There isn't so much shame but an indignance towards being told "you're wrong for having such views". I think about that lie of a plaque in Dallas,TX. The plaque says "the war is not about slavery", even though there is ample proof of the opposite. It's not so much about feeling ashamed, but rather, responding to people whom they think are trying to shame them.
I compare it to a kid who is a bully. Said kid has done bullied another kid. Kid fights back and knocks out the bully. The bully isn't ashamed of being a bully. Said bullied just wants everyone else to shut up about him/her losing the fight, and why the fight started in the first place. Said bully hasn't changed. Said bully still plays the victim, even though the bully was the bully. It's not defeat that scares the bully, it's feeling besmirched that is more humiliating.
I know what I see when I look at a Confederate flag. I see something disgusting. It will never fly from my front porch. It will never be displayed in my home. I see backwardsness when I see it. I think to myself "whoever is flying that flag probably wants the days of segregation to come back, wants the days when I 'knew my place', or likely would want slavery to come back but will never say so". I feel this way because of what the Confederate cause was about.
In the past, when someone told me "it represents southern heritage", I was left with some confusion. Part of me has thought "wow, it represents southern heritage. Then I don't wany any part of southern heritage, because it obviously represents a desire for someone like me to suffer under the ravages of slavery and Jim Crow". Part of me was also dumbfounded. There were people who would wear Confederate flag t-shirts and would be very nice. They wouldn't come off as prejudice. However, I've also ran into some very racist people who proudly proclaimed the Confederate flag. I also learned that some people you can't discuss this issue with. It gets ugly really fast.
I was left wondering if some people just didn't know better, or if some people know better but fake ignorance. And then I realize something. Like most African-Americans, I have southern roots. I've lived in other parts of the USA, but I've grown up in the South. I've never felt southern though (no accent, never grew with the idea of southern heritage in my family). Just based on family, most African-Americans have southern roots. My mother is from the South. My father is from the northern USA, but his parents are from the South. A majority of African-Americans are from the South. This makes African-Americans the most southern of any group of Americans. And yet, I don't see African-Americans identifying with the Confederate flag or trying to claim it as part of their southern heritage. If it was really about southern heritage, far more African-Americans in the South would embrace the Confederate flag. The opposite is taking place.
It leaves this to wonder. Is it really about southern heritage? Most African-Americans can claim some form of southern heritage, and many do. But the Confederate flag is not part of it. What is southern heritage? What is it really about?
That is where I'm coming from. With France, there is so much shame regarding Papon, no one says his name. No one wants to know his name. There are still many in the South who proudly and shamelessly claim Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, and Stonewall Jackson as their own. There is some shamelessness in the South.
There is a strong tendancy to downplay the role of slavery. Part of it could be shame. However, I think another big part of it is saving face. I think of it like this. Someone could have some very immmoral views, ugly views. Some people know they are supporting something that represents an ugly cause. The goal is to save face. There isn't so much shame but an indignance towards being told "you're wrong for having such views". I think about that lie of a plaque in Dallas,TX. The plaque says "the war is not about slavery", even though there is ample proof of the opposite. It's not so much about feeling ashamed, but rather, responding to people whom they think are trying to shame them.
I compare it to a kid who is a bully. Said kid has done bullied another kid. Kid fights back and knocks out the bully. The bully isn't ashamed of being a bully. Said bullied just wants everyone else to shut up about him/her losing the fight, and why the fight started in the first place. Said bully hasn't changed. Said bully still plays the victim, even though the bully was the bully. It's not defeat that scares the bully, it's feeling besmirched that is more humiliating.
I know what I see when I look at a Confederate flag. I see something disgusting. It will never fly from my front porch. It will never be displayed in my home. I see backwardsness when I see it. I think to myself "whoever is flying that flag probably wants the days of segregation to come back, wants the days when I 'knew my place', or likely would want slavery to come back but will never say so". I feel this way because of what the Confederate cause was about.
In the past, when someone told me "it represents southern heritage", I was left with some confusion. Part of me has thought "wow, it represents southern heritage. Then I don't wany any part of southern heritage, because it obviously represents a desire for someone like me to suffer under the ravages of slavery and Jim Crow". Part of me was also dumbfounded. There were people who would wear Confederate flag t-shirts and would be very nice. They wouldn't come off as prejudice. However, I've also ran into some very racist people who proudly proclaimed the Confederate flag. I also learned that some people you can't discuss this issue with. It gets ugly really fast.
I was left wondering if some people just didn't know better, or if some people know better but fake ignorance. And then I realize something. Like most African-Americans, I have southern roots. I've lived in other parts of the USA, but I've grown up in the South. I've never felt southern though (no accent, never grew with the idea of southern heritage in my family). Just based on family, most African-Americans have southern roots. My mother is from the South. My father is from the northern USA, but his parents are from the South. A majority of African-Americans are from the South. This makes African-Americans the most southern of any group of Americans. And yet, I don't see African-Americans identifying with the Confederate flag or trying to claim it as part of their southern heritage. If it was really about southern heritage, far more African-Americans in the South would embrace the Confederate flag. The opposite is taking place.
It leaves this to wonder. Is it really about southern heritage? Most African-Americans can claim some form of southern heritage, and many do. But the Confederate flag is not part of it. What is southern heritage? What is it really about?
So much here I can understand, it's honest & straightforward, & has a clear & reality-based rationale. So unlike the neo-Confederate, alt-right, et al ideological double-speak!
Long story short: Confederate denialism & double-speak is used to justify neo-Confederate pride.
You wrote of the tendency to downplay the role of slavery. This is the thing: History matters. History is relevant here.
Immediately following the War, there was disagreement regarding the cause of the War, a disagreement which persists in the present day. This disagreement, both then & now, is the role of slavery.
Each of the Confederate states issued an Article of Secession document declaring their break from the United States of America. Four states went further. Texas, Mississippi, Georgia & South Carolina all issued additional documents, Declarations of Causes in which each state further explains their decision.
History matters. History is relevant here.
Primary Sources:
From Georgia's Declaration of Causes:
Quote:
The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees in its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.
With these principles on their banners and these utterances on their lips the majority of the people of the North demand that we shall receive them as our rulers.
The prohibition of slavery in the Territories is the cardinal principle of this organization.
From Mississippi's Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union:
Quote:
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.
From South Carolina's Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union:
Quote:
For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the *forms* [emphasis in the original] of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared*that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.
History matters.
Confederate denialism is used to justify neo-Confederate pride.
The States' rights argument is more double-speak & sophisty.
How could the Confederate States secede to preserve states’ rights if its own constitution mandated legal, federally protected slavery across state borders?
(I'm gonna stop now because I could go on & on & you know all this.)
This is the topic: Why do most Blacks, despite the majority of Blacks being southerners, not identify with the Confederate flag? Why are there more White southerners per capita identify with the Confederate flag compared to Blacks? Why Black American, most of whom have southern roots, not claiming the Confederate flag as part of their southern heritage? Why are there more negative reactions to the Confederate flag from Blacks compared to Whites? Why such a large cultural disconnect in the South along racial lines?
That is what I'm asking, that is what the topic is about. If you're not interested in it, move along and find another thread, or start your own thread.
Okay. Honestly, after this many posts, I would think your questions about the confederate flag would have been answered by now. But, since some seem either unable or unwilling to answer these specific questions you have laid out in the post above, I will do so.
First: Why do most black people, despite their southern heritage, not identify with the Confederate flag?
Answer: That's simple. I'd say first and foremost, the Confederate flag was and is the battle flag of the Confederacy, a group of states who tried to leave the Union in order to defend the rights of the states to govern themselves rather than allow the federal government to rule over all. Of course, as we all know, the straw that broke the camel's back and brought on this war was the intention of the government to end slavery. I only mention the part about "state's rights" because that is an argument often brought up when the Civil War is being discussed. Regardless, in the end, it was truly about certain states wishing to continue to own, purchase, and profit off of slave labor. And the Confederate flag represents the views/ideals of the leaders and citizens of those states at that time. So, knowing what we know about the war and the flag, how on earth could any black man/woman in the United States look upon that flag with anything but disdain? Now, please understand, I am not saying that means the Confederate flag should be banned, or that all people who do support the flying of that flag are automatically racists or anything like that. But as for black people, I just don't see how any of them could "identify" with the Confederate flag. I know many people say the flag is all about "Heritage, not Hate" but for black people, I imagine all they see is the hate.
Second: Why do more white southerners per capita identify with the Confederate flag compared to black people?
Answer: I'd say the answer is probably included in my answer to the first question above. However, as for the white people who still cling to the flag, for most, I believe it is how they were raised to perceive the flag. I live in the south, and I honestly only know a couple of people who possess a Confederate flag. And I think you will find that most people who fly the flag do not do so out of some love for southern history or a desire to relive the past or hope that "the south will rise again". Most people who fly the Confederate flag do so because it gives them a sense of power. They know if they fly that flag they are going to upset/anger untold numbers of people, and frankly some people get off on that. Honestly, I think if you really did the legwork to research this subject first hand, you would find what I've said to be true. Most white people who actually fly that flag do it to mess with other people. They enjoy knowing they are affecting other people's lives simply by flying a piece of fabric in the air.
I think I've probably answered all your questions within my two statements above. But now, I have one question for you. Why do you believe there is a large cultural disconnect down racial lines in the South? Do you actually live in the South? I only ask because I have lived in the South my entire life. And this line you seem to think exists between blacks and whites here does not, in fact, exist. For the most part, black and white people here in the south coexist without any tension over the color of our skin. Of course, there is and always will be a cultural divide between different kinds of people no matter where you go. I mean come on, look at New York City. It seems like every other race/nationality has their own couple of city blocks in that town. A place where similar people can congregate together, while also allowing outsiders the chance to come in and see what they are all about. The South is no different than any other place in this country. The problem is, just as some people like to hang on to that flag, other people want to hang on to the stigma surrounding it. And that bleeds all over the good people in the South who just want the past to be the past, so we can all look to the future together.
It's not just the flag & it's not just in the South.
Quote:
Racism is an infection that plagues our entire country, yet the South is where you will find the original wound, still bloody and unhealed.
Quote:
For instance:
Why are so many public parks, city halls, and state houses throughout the South littered with monuments to the Confederacy?
Why are there statues dedicated to men who rebelled against the United States of America, to generals who fought to maintain the right to own other human beings?
What does it say about us, as white Southerners, that these are the symbols most closely associated these days with the concept of “Southern heritage”?
Of course, the Confederacy and its racist legacy does not solely define the South nor its incredibly rich contributions to the cultural fabric of America. Try imagining, for instance, American music without the talents of James Brown, Aretha Franklin, or Johnny Cash, without the blues of Mississippi, the twang of Nashville, or the second line stomp of New Orleans. Try imagining the culinary landscape of America without collard greens, barbeque, gumbo, grits, sweet tea, or banana pudding. Try imagining the natural beauty of this nation without the Charleston lowcountry, without the Blue Ridge and Great Smoky mountains, without the mighty Mississippi river.
These are all things of which Southerners can be genuinely proud. And yet, whenever the concept of “Southern pride” is invoked these days, it always seems to be coming from the mouths of men whose white faces have grown red with rage, angrily waving their rebel flags in the air. After all, it was the potential removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee that brought together in Charlottesville that unholy union of Neo-Nazis, Klan members, white supremacists, and self-avowed fascists.
Quote:
Here’s another hard question.
What are we, as white Southerners, going to do about this?
A SOUTHERN SHAME: A WHITE SOUTHERNER’S TAKE ON RACE, CHARLOTTESVILLE, AND CONFEDERATE MONUMENTS
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