U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-01-2019, 03:19 PM
 
15,669 posts, read 4,149,886 times
Reputation: 11250

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkcarguy View Post
All of you who think we can continue to purchase more than 4x the goods from China that they do from us, need to watch this video. Older video, same premise. See the forest through the trees.
This is not about which party you prefer, this is all about the money. We will be better off using our tariff money on Chinese imports to subsidize farmers and continue to reclaim our manufacturing base than continuing down the path of the last 3 decades.
Well, things would be better for me if I could sprout wings and avoid airlines.....but there is no possibility of that happening.

Just as there is ZERO possibility of a monkey creating the Oxford Dictionary.

Which is exactly the odds of a Con Man with zero abilities at anything (other than acting and lying) creating economic policies that work.

And, it ties in with the odds of you (or I) knowing the details of international finance...for example.....

Tesla is building a large factory in China - almost done and producing. If things work out they may eventually have 6 factories there and many others in Asia and throughout the world.

Whose "imports" are those? Whose "goods" are those? There is no way you can claim you know the ins and out of how stuff like that works....BUT, there are some hints which you probably have not looked at.

Apple. Responsible for 1.5 MILLION US JOBS or more, plus untold gained wealth in the stock here in the USA and many offshoots that also produce wealth. Yet they are "made in China". China gets the $10 labor cost for assembly - Apple and WE (USA) get the $500 profit made on phones sold in the USA.

The Apple jobs here are high pay, high benefit and fit our system. The Apple Jobs there require 100's of thousands of young people who show up on time each day and polish iPad screens with solvent.

It is all about the money and the money today is in brains.

"Build up our manufacturing" is BS because Trump wouldn't know anything about that. In fact, current indicators are very low....so in 2 1/2 years he's done nothing and the trade deficit with China is larger than ever.

It's not about political party - it's about basic common sense and the fact that our country is filled with know-nothings who somehow think another know-nothing is going to solve complex problems. You might as well give a burger flipper a scalpel and tell him or her to perform brain surgery. Those are the odds.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-01-2019, 03:22 PM
 
9,678 posts, read 2,378,870 times
Reputation: 4802
Quote:
Originally Posted by phma View Post
So every American will be better off when China replaces us in everything we are number one in ?

That's doesn't sound smart at all !!! Can you explain how that works ?
Unfortunately (I am serious) China turns out more engineers than the USA does. These days American companies don't have to send designs to China, the Chinese companies bring their own designs and persuade American companies to put their own logo on them and market them.

It has been that way for a while.

There is a lot of fluidity in technological development the world over (and BTW the USA has the most expensive people). American companies are contracting their engineering to India too (it's not just answering services being shunted over there). The USA is fading, we have ben losing our edge for a while.

We can not become or remain number one in any field we can not compete in. The answer to that is not tariffs. We need to focus on getting our young people well educated (especially in the STEM fields and the trades), and not burden them with decades of debt they will have trouble paying off.

We are a great people, full of promise and unlimited potential, but we have to get this right, and soon, or we will fall behind for good. It's just that simple.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-01-2019, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Bellingham, WA
896 posts, read 1,123,169 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedergras View Post
This already is the reality in Democrat cities. It's why people keep fleeing blue states entirely.
Very true.
Having been to Ukraine a decade ago, I got to see first hand how a communist-capitalist system works. Golden rule is the rules. The 99.9% have their 250 sq/ft apartment. Dad works nights and sleeps in the living room on a fold out bed while the kids are at school and the wife works, and vice versa. Most public places aren't cared for or maintained. People steel manhole covers, electric and phone cables. A process manager at the refinery is a upper-middle class position that pays $600/month. When you are over age 60 and are having a stroke or heart attack they won't even send an ambulance. At the same time, because other first world countries will pay more for their commodities, things like meat, fuel, and consumer goods are much the same as they are priced here.

Meanwhile, infrastructure falls apart, and bridges are closed between towns while the Czar's of each city purchase vacation homes on the sea.

It showed me that we have a long ways to fall, if we do nothing and let it happen.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-01-2019, 03:36 PM
 
15,669 posts, read 4,149,886 times
Reputation: 11250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
Unfortunately (I am serious) China turns out more engineers than the USA does. These days American companies don't have to send designs to China, the Chinese companies bring their own designs and persuade American companies to put their own logo on them and market them.

It has been that way for a while.
.
The very same people on these threads lamenting Chinas rise - constantly post about how one does not have to go to college to succeed.

Put two and two together.......and it's why vast trillions in value come from the PNW, Silicon Valley, SoCal and Boston......but also why it is limited to these (and a very few other) places.

Since "education is bad" for many of these very same "trade war loving" people...I wonder how the heck they can expect our country to prosper? Are we going to send our newly minted Plumbers to China to plunge their toilets?

Education, to many of these complainers, is a "liberal trait". As Colbert put it "Reality has a well known liberal bias".

It's a lot harder to solve real problems then to blame others.....and follow along with what some Con Man or Populist tell us the problems are.

Job #1 is understanding what problems to solve. Maybe a decade after we embark on that we can discuss trade wars.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-01-2019, 03:36 PM
 
1,365 posts, read 701,932 times
Reputation: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkcarguy View Post
Very true.
Having been to Ukraine a decade ago, I got to see first hand how a communist-capitalist system works. Golden rule is the rules. The 99.9% have their 250 sq/ft apartment. Dad works nights and sleeps in the living room on a fold out bed while the kids are at school and the wife works, and vice versa. Most public places aren't cared for or maintained. People steel manhole covers, electric and phone cables. A process manager at the refinery is a upper-middle class position that pays $600/month. When you are over age 60 and are having a stroke or heart attack they won't even send an ambulance. At the same time, because other first world countries will pay more for their commodities, things like meat, fuel, and consumer goods are much the same as they are priced here.

Meanwhile, infrastructure falls apart, and bridges are closed between towns while the Czar's of each city purchase vacation homes on the sea.

It showed me that we have a long ways to fall, if we do nothing and let it happen.
Boston Big Dig is billions over budget yet a panel falls onto a motorist causing her death, or the Denver VA is billions overbudget and still isn't finished. Dems whine about their tax dollars going down south but can't even get their own public funded projects right. Hypocrites and arrogant enough to think people don't see through their corruption.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-01-2019, 03:36 PM
 
1,497 posts, read 1,833,840 times
Reputation: 986
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedergras View Post
GOP opened up trade, Dempcrats shipped out their factories to the Chinese before the red states had to do so because they couldn't compete with China.
It's a shame they didn't lock up Lindsey Graham and Moscow Mitch inside those factories before they shipped em over to China. The US would be better off.

And seriously, Trump is nothing if not an idiot, so he will walk back his inflammatory comments before things get out of hand. Its part of his "showmanship."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-01-2019, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Bellingham, WA
896 posts, read 1,123,169 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Well, things would be better for me if I could sprout wings and avoid airlines.....but there is no possibility of that happening.

Just as there is ZERO possibility of a monkey creating the Oxford Dictionary.

Which is exactly the odds of a Con Man with zero abilities at anything (other than acting and lying) creating economic policies that work.

And, it ties in with the odds of you (or I) knowing the details of international finance...for example.....

Tesla is building a large factory in China - almost done and producing. If things work out they may eventually have 6 factories there and many others in Asia and throughout the world.

Whose "imports" are those? Whose "goods" are those? There is no way you can claim you know the ins and out of how stuff like that works....BUT, there are some hints which you probably have not looked at.

Apple. Responsible for 1.5 MILLION US JOBS or more, plus untold gained wealth in the stock here in the USA and many offshoots that also produce wealth. Yet they are "made in China". China gets the $10 labor cost for assembly - Apple and WE (USA) get the $500 profit made on phones sold in the USA.

The Apple jobs here are high pay, high benefit and fit our system. The Apple Jobs there require 100's of thousands of young people who show up on time each day and polish iPad screens with solvent.

It is all about the money and the money today is in brains.

"Build up our manufacturing" is BS because Trump wouldn't know anything about that. In fact, current indicators are very low....so in 2 1/2 years he's done nothing and the trade deficit with China is larger than ever.

It's not about political party - it's about basic common sense and the fact that our country is filled with know-nothings who somehow think another know-nothing is going to solve complex problems. You might as well give a burger flipper a scalpel and tell him or her to perform brain surgery. Those are the odds.
Some great points here, which support my "selective tariffs" thoughts. There are other industries which do NOTHING for us in the USA and make poor quality junk that ends up causing injuries, illness, or at a minimum ends up in the landfill a month after its warranty is up. A co-worker of mine has a brother in the battery industry that visits China often to perform Q/C of their facilities, and oh some of the horror stories he's shared. One facility making L-ion batteries was literally rows of people at tables under a large canopy outdoors assembling these things. If you know anything about L-ion batteries, they are wound very tight to produce high output from a small battery, and everything needs to be super clean and accurately done because they will develop internal shorts and burn or explode if not. The factory ran by electricity from coal power, the water from cleanup and processing just running into the field behind the place. The air was grey and he coughed up black soot the whole time he was there. Another facility was mostly automated, super clean, with several international certifications, but was buying their batteries FROM THE BACKYARD BATTERY MAKER because theirs were cheaper.

Regardless of which and what we tariff, I'm not getting off my podium that we need to better balance trade. China will still make lots of stuff and be a powerhouse, but there is no reason we can't be an equal powerhouse and make safer, quality goods in segments of the market where the Chinese fail. We also can't let domestic raw material production fade into the past and become dependent upon other countries for that. Tariff's are what will make this work. Unfortunately, many the US consumer is too dumb to realize that they aren't getting a good deal when their electric can opener dies every three years but costs $30, when the US made one lasts 30 years costs $60 and was given away only because it was khaki green was out of style. And you haven't had real fun until a Chinese power strip with a fake UL listing certification stamp on it, burns down your home and forces your family into a hotel for 9 months.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-01-2019, 04:59 PM
 
203 posts, read 34,746 times
Reputation: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkcarguy View Post
Very true.
Having been to Ukraine a decade ago, I got to see first hand how a communist-capitalist system works.
Not sure what you mean. Decade ago is ~2009; SU collapsed in 1991. That's 18 years of pure capitalist system in Ukraine. And in case you didn't know, things are even worse now; so 28 years of capitalist system drove country totally down to the point where even Somali is better off economy-wise.

I would conclude that it's not a system that is right/wrong; it's more who has a power and what goals they have. After SU collapse all former republics are run by oligarchs that have only one goal - sell whatever leftovers their country has and ran away with all the stolen money to Miami
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-01-2019, 05:20 PM
 
203 posts, read 34,746 times
Reputation: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkcarguy View Post
Some great points here, which support my "selective tariffs" thoughts. There are other industries which do NOTHING for us in the USA and make poor quality junk that ends up causing injuries, illness, or at a minimum ends up in the landfill a month after its warranty is up. A co-worker of mine has a brother in the battery industry that visits China often to perform Q/C of their facilities, and oh some of the horror stories he's shared. One facility making L-ion batteries was literally rows of people at tables under a large canopy outdoors assembling these things. If you know anything about L-ion batteries, they are wound very tight to produce high output from a small battery, and everything needs to be super clean and accurately done because they will develop internal shorts and burn or explode if not. The factory ran by electricity from coal power, the water from cleanup and processing just running into the field behind the place. The air was grey and he coughed up black soot the whole time he was there. Another facility was mostly automated, super clean, with several international certifications, but was buying their batteries FROM THE BACKYARD BATTERY MAKER because theirs were cheaper.

Regardless of which and what we tariff, I'm not getting off my podium that we need to better balance trade. China will still make lots of stuff and be a powerhouse, but there is no reason we can't be an equal powerhouse and make safer, quality goods in segments of the market where the Chinese fail. We also can't let domestic raw material production fade into the past and become dependent upon other countries for that. Tariff's are what will make this work. Unfortunately, many the US consumer is too dumb to realize that they aren't getting a good deal when their electric can opener dies every three years but costs $30, when the US made one lasts 30 years costs $60 and was given away only because it was khaki green was out of style. And you haven't had real fun until a Chinese power strip with a fake UL listing certification stamp on it, burns down your home and forces your family into a hotel for 9 months.
Approximately 50% of Boeing aircraft hull, systems etc are designed in Russia. That's includes:
787-8/9/10 "Dreamliner", 767-200SF, 747-400BCF, 737-900ER, 777-300ER/200LR, 747-400LCF, 747-8F/-8I, etc.
How tariffs going to help that?
40% of all titan Boeing uses also come from Russia. In this particular case tariffs will help... to increase price of Boeing civilian aircrafts and decrease Boeing competitiveness with Airbus, thus driving company further down, adding more layoffs etc.

Another example: most grills sold in US are made from Chinese steel that rots pretty fast. Consumers hate that, but continue to buy more new grills to replace rotten ones. Grill-producing companies, as well as local stores benefit from that - economy goes up. Let's pretend tariffs going to stop bad Chinese steel from import, grill will now be made from good US steel. Customers will be happy, buy one grill to last 20-30 years, companies can no longer sell new ones every year, so they will go down and lay off people, stores go down and lay off people, economy goes down. The only way to solve the problem is to replace bad Chinese steel with equally bad US steel. So, from then on "made in US" will become a trademark of bad products. Well, I guess it's not a big price to pay...until markets outside of US will start to prefer products of other countries due to bad quality of US ones. And that again will start the cycle of going down...

So, how exactly tariffs will help US economy?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-01-2019, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Bellingham, WA
896 posts, read 1,123,169 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by kanonka View Post
Approximately 50% of Boeing aircraft hull, systems etc are designed in Russia. That's includes:
787-8/9/10 "Dreamliner", 767-200SF, 747-400BCF, 737-900ER, 777-300ER/200LR, 747-400LCF, 747-8F/-8I, etc.
How tariffs going to help that?
40% of all titan Boeing uses also come from Russia. In this particular case tariffs will help... to increase price of Boeing civilian aircrafts and decrease Boeing competitiveness with Airbus, thus driving company further down, adding more layoffs etc.

Another example: most grills sold in US are made from Chinese steel that rots pretty fast. Consumers hate that, but continue to buy more new grills to replace rotten ones. Grill-producing companies, as well as local stores benefit from that - economy goes up. Let's pretend tariffs going to stop bad Chinese steel from import, grill will now be made from good US steel. Customers will be happy, buy one grill to last 20-30 years, companies can no longer sell new ones every year, so they will go down and lay off people, stores go down and lay off people, economy goes down. The only way to solve the problem is to replace bad Chinese steel with equally bad US steel. So, from then on "made in US" will become a trademark of bad products. Well, I guess it's not a big price to pay...until markets outside of US will start to prefer products of other countries due to bad quality of US ones. And that again will start the cycle of going down...

So, how exactly tariffs will help US economy?

I don't see how it's ok to replace US manufacturing jobs with "middlemen" jobs for imported stuff. In the end it's just this simple....our money is leaving the country and not coming back when we have such a trade deficit. Our money then essentially accumulates in China, and they don't want our goods...they want to buy our banks, our energy companies, our food processing companies....no need to militarize and take over the USA....China will just buy it a piece at a time with the Trillions of USD$$$ we dumbly handed over. Also realize that the USA only runs anywhere from a 10% trade deficit to almost balanced with countries like Canada and that means we only need minor tariff adjustments with those countries. China is the problem as our deficit with them is far greater than all the other countries combined.
I personally hate Chinese BBQ's, have owned several that rusted out quick and back to a 10 year old BBQ I snagged at a garage sale that's made in the USA and is still holding up well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top