Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Am I wrong that many citizens in eastern Ukraine are pro Russian and ethnically Russian?
So what, there are many situations like that around the world. Many citizens in Northwest India are Muslim, speak Urdu and probably are pro-Pakistan. Does that mean India would be okay with Pakistan coming in and trying to take that land and coming up with some stupid fake elections to say "Oh yeah, we want to join Pakistan?" Would the world be okay with that?
NATO is a voluntary organization, that mean anyone can petition to join. Does Poutine know this? Yes.
Does Poutine know that simply petitioning to join does not automatically equate to membership? Yes.
Does Poutine know the entire NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP)? Yes.
Does Poutine know there is no set timeline for membership? Yes.
Does Poutine know that any NATO member can object to a candidate which would stop the MAP? Yes.
Does Poutine know that a country's internal corruption can stop a candidate? Yes.
Does Poutine know that in 2008 France, Germany, Spain, Italy, and The Netherlands objected to Ukraine's MAP? Yes.
Does Poutine know that the Republic of North Macedonia took 21 yrs to gain membership? Yes.
So how did the US 'poked the bear'? Poutine is more likely to die in office before Ukraine become NATO member. Does Poutine know this? Yes.
Ukraine never even made it into the MAP.
Russia was not in an economic or military position to do anything back in the 1990's, and Gobachev, Yeltsin and Putin all initially tried to forge good relations with the West, whilst NATO's great rival the Warsaw pact had ceased to exist, and as such that would have been the sensible time for NATO to disband rather than to expand the organisation. Then again it was the US that pushed for the continuation of NATO, as well as the later expansion of NATO to the east.
Just two months before Russia's invasion of Ukraine in December 2021, the man many regarded as the main architect of peace in Europe, Mikhail Gorbachev stated to the world that Washington grew "arrogant and self-confident" after the collapse of the Soviet Union, leading to the expansion of the NATO military alliance.
At the same time, Moscow presented the West with sweeping security demands, saying NATO must not admit new members and seeking to bar the United States from establishing new bases in former Soviet countries.
The US and NATO ignored these Russian demands and on the 24th February 2022, two months later Russian troops entered Ukraine, a country that the US had continually interfered in and which Russia had provided previous embarrassing proof of US interference in relation to a taped US diplomatic phone call.
Whilst I a not supporter of Putin or Russian actions over the years, the truth is that the US and NATO must also take some of the blame for the current state of affairs, and some commentators even predicted the eventual outcome of the US led NATO expansion.
What is ironic, is that having been partially responsible for the current situation through it's interference, the US is now becoming more isolationist and protectionist, and could even decide to leave NATO, although questioning support for Article 5 has already caused a lot of damage to the current credibility of the trans-atlantic alliance.
In terms of Europe, it must now look to increase defence collaboration and seek alternatives to the US, and NATO as it can not be held to ransom every four years or be subject to the changing whims of US politics, and it's rather ridiculous that Europe is still relying on the US, 80 years after the D-Day Normandy landings on the 6th June 1944, an anniversary which will be remembered on the 6th June 2024.
As for Putin, there are numerous others waiting in the wings to replace him, many with similar views and some with even more radical views, so the eventual demise of Putin is not a guarantee of anything, and it seems that Europe has once again become increasingly caught between Russia and the US.
Last edited by Brave New World; 02-28-2024 at 07:20 AM..
Am I wrong that many citizens in eastern Ukraine are pro Russian and ethnically Russian?
In the same sense that many citizens who have been in Texas for generations are ethnically Mexican. Should we give Texas back to Mexico? What about northern New England, where French radio stations are common. Should we hand that over to Quebec since a significant number of the citizens are ethnically French Canadian?
Eastern Ukraine tended to speak Russian more frequently than other parts of the country. That has changed dramatically in the past 2 years. Kyiv and Odessa both have shifted despite being more "Russian".
In the same sense that many citizens who have been in Texas for generations are ethnically Mexican. Should we give Texas back to Mexico? What about northern New England, where French radio stations are common. Should we hand that over to Quebec since a significant number of the citizens are ethnically French Canadian?
Eastern Ukraine tended to speak Russian more frequently than other parts of the country. That has changed dramatically in the past 2 years. Kyiv and Odessa both have shifted despite being more "Russian".
Russia clearly stated that it wanted Ukraine to remain neutral, and any attempt at NATO membership would be viewed as crossing a security red line. So what did NATO (essentially U.S. neocons) do? They poked the bear and invited the Ukes to join.
Your analogy of Mexico/Texas is flawed in the sense that the U.S. did use the threat of force to take significant territory from Mexico, and did so using essentially the same reasons that Russia is using today.
Bottom line: Ukraine is not worth a world war, and it never will be. The only people pushing to continue this insanity are the weapons cartels and their crony politicians.
In the same sense that many citizens who have been in Texas for generations are ethnically Mexican. Should we give Texas back to Mexico? What about northern New England, where French radio stations are common. Should we hand that over to Quebec since a significant number of the citizens are ethnically French Canadian?
Eastern Ukraine tended to speak Russian more frequently than other parts of the country. That has changed dramatically in the past 2 years. Kyiv and Odessa both have shifted despite being more "Russian".
Ethno-Linguistic maps of Ukraine are easy enough to find.
Russia clearly stated that it wanted Ukraine to remain neutral, and any attempt at NATO membership would be viewed as crossing a security red line. So what did NATO (essentially U.S. neocons) do? They poked the bear and invited the Ukes to join.
.
The “Ukes” wanted to join NATO. Western leaders were apprehensive about that. By invading, Putin has shown the necessity of NATO membership for Ukraine*. Now it’s inevitable.
*Just like he drove Sweden and Finland into NATOs arms.
PUTIN is bluffing about his trepidation over NATO on his borders. It's a done deal that Belarus is a "Russian" puppet state, and it borders NATO members.
Finland, too.
Russia has a demographic crisis, with an expectation of 25% population drop by 2100. Frankly, he's accelerating the depopulation of his country. Smart move.
Russian capability to launch anything will be sorely restricted. And if they would happen to be able to take out D.C., I'd say that's a "win-win"....
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
