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Old 04-29-2009, 02:31 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
18,161 posts, read 15,640,631 times
Reputation: 17152

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stycotl View Post
thanks. i'll probably go add that to the summary; it is certainly a trait that they were bred for. i'm gonna keep aggressiveness in though, because it is true, and because there is nothing inherently wrong with the fact that they are aggressive. it is the way that we mismanage them that creates the problem with their aggressiveness, and this goes for every dog breed, and hell, it even goes for cats and parrots too.



feel free to offer amendments to it. i won't claim to be a historian; most of that was what i remember from studying the subject extensively before getting our dog.

i have never been one to blame it all on the dog species. that would be like blaming the mountain lion when it comes down from the hills in the middle of winter because it is starving. but even still, i was very cautious about it before i went and adopted a pit. i would have been the same with a rott, a dane, or any other large, powerful dog as well.
Your statements on animal behavior have much merit. I recently had to change homeowners policies, as the company I had would not underwrite me because I have a 'vicious' dog'! My Siberian Husky, Shepard mix. It rather flabbergasted me to find out she is 'vicious'. She won't even chase a cat. I still say breed is irrelevant against how a dog is treated and raised, but animals, just like people , are individuals. Some just go bad on you. I have had this happen. A Chow, something mix I had just went phsyco one day. No rhyme or reason, he just went bad. To lump an entire breed into one catagory because of individual behavior seems a bit misguided. I will grant that a LOT of people who get a Pit, do so because they want a 'bad' dog. Bad meaning formidable, and teach these dogs to be aggresive. However, I could make ANY dog into a killer with very little effort. It's NOT the breed of dog that makes it a killer. Some breeds are better equipped than others to be so (larger, stronger, etc) and some of these are not good choices to have around kids, just because of their shere size. They could hurt a kid just playing, without realizing they were doing a thing wrong. Whatever breed an owner chooses, that owner needs to exercise some common sense, and responsibility.

 
Old 04-29-2009, 05:54 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 5,458,207 times
Reputation: 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
Your statements on animal behavior have much merit.
thanks.

Quote:
I recently had to change homeowners policies, as the company I had would not underwrite me because I have a 'vicious' dog'! My Siberian Husky, Shepard mix. It rather flabbergasted me to find out she is 'vicious'. She won't even chase a cat.
yep. i would bet that my parent's border collie is meaner than your dog, but you probably won't see anyone trying to ban border collies, which are known to be extremely temperamental, aggressive dogs, especially with children. and they're big enough to do damage even to an adult, much more a child.

Quote:
I still say breed is irrelevant against how a dog is treated and raised, but animals, just like people , are individuals. Some just go bad on you. I have had this happen. A Chow, something mix I had just went phsyco one day. No rhyme or reason, he just went bad. To lump an entire breed into one catagory because of individual behavior seems a bit misguided. I will grant that a LOT of people who get a Pit, do so because they want a 'bad' dog. Bad meaning formidable, and teach these dogs to be aggresive. However, I could make ANY dog into a killer with very little effort. It's NOT the breed of dog that makes it a killer. Some breeds are better equipped than others to be so (larger, stronger, etc) and some of these are not good choices to have around kids, just because of their shere size. They could hurt a kid just playing, without realizing they were doing a thing wrong. Whatever breed an owner chooses, that owner needs to exercise some common sense, and responsibility.
that is definitely true. it comes down to an individual basis in dogs as much as it does in humans.

i posted a link to an article saying that children are hundreds of times more likely to be abused by their own parents than they are by a pit bull, or even any dog at all.

thousands of children die every year at the hands of their parents, but people would rather scapegoat and pass inane breed bans than tackle the actual problem.

and you know what, both the cases of parental violence and canine violence toward children are the result of human incompetence and apathy. both problems share the same root: scumbag humans.
 
Old 04-29-2009, 11:00 PM
 
Location: James Island, SC
1,629 posts, read 3,478,465 times
Reputation: 927
Quote:
Originally Posted by stycotl View Post
when you say things like, "most dogs are nice, but pits are aggressive," it leads me to believe that you don't know the first thing about animal (dog in particular) psychology, and that you really do think of and act as if your dog were a furry human.

i hope you can understand that by doing this you are undercutting your own position about how dangerous a certain breed of dog is. if you don't understand that even your little ****zu or your doe-eyed retriever are killers, then please keep your dogs away from other people so you don't get anyone hurt.

[cut for length]

aaron out.

Love your post.


LOVE IT.




 
Old 05-01-2009, 12:25 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 5,458,207 times
Reputation: 1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mearth View Post
Love your post.


LOVE IT.




thanks. some people probably just roll their eyes at it–notice that the op and his/her supporters haven't said a word about it–but it is true. talk to any of the experts and they will tell you that the average pet owner *creates* problems because they don't know how to manage their pet.

i'm certainly not perfect either; i screw up and catch myself assuming that my dog has human intentions when i see her doing something, whether it is good or bad.

it just bothers me to no end when those same uneducated people that are screwing up their own pets start ranting on the boards about how messed up someone else's dog is because it.... (drum roll) acts like a dog, and how morally and socially retarded anyone would have to be to own one of those dogs that.... (again) acts like a dog.

even in just that tiny, understated example there are three or four logical fallacies that i can see right off the top of my head. not exactly signs of brilliance.
 
Old 05-01-2009, 04:23 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 10,282,499 times
Reputation: 1893
Quote:
Originally Posted by stycotl View Post
thanks. some people probably just roll their eyes at it–notice that the op and his/her supporters haven't said a word about it–but it is true. talk to any of the experts and they will tell you that the average pet owner *creates* problems because they don't know how to manage their pet.

i'm certainly not perfect either; i screw up and catch myself assuming that my dog has human intentions when i see her doing something, whether it is good or bad.

it just bothers me to no end when those same uneducated people that are screwing up their own pets start ranting on the boards about how messed up someone else's dog is because it.... (drum roll) acts like a dog, and how morally and socially retarded anyone would have to be to own one of those dogs that.... (again) acts like a dog.

even in just that tiny, understated example there are three or four logical fallacies that i can see right off the top of my head. not exactly signs of brilliance.

Too true. The trainer we hired for our dog (and us) told me:

"It's easy to train the dogs. It's training the owners that's the hard part."

Also:

"There are no bad dogs. Just bad owners."
 
Old 05-01-2009, 04:42 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 10,282,499 times
Reputation: 1893
Quote:
Originally Posted by stycotl View Post
i am going to make a few observations that i find extremely troubling, and to say the least, hypocritical. some of you breed-ban supporters out there are operating under this faulty reasoning, and it is not only destructive to human-animal relations, it is actually directly responsible for dog attacks.



every dog is inclined to be aggressive. i am going to repeat that now to make sure that people are understanding it.

every dog is inclined to be aggressive. there is not a breed out there that is not a pack-hunting, prey-killing, blood-spilling, alpha-dominant subspecies. every single breed of dog out there.

those of you that try to treat your dog as a human being, assigning it human emotions, and worse, human desires, are not only screwing up your own pack dynamic, but you are creating an inherently dangerous situation where the dog becomes confused, emotionally distressed, and potentially hostile.

when you say things like, "most dogs are nice, but pits are aggressive," it leads me to believe that you don't know the first thing about animal (dog in particular) psychology, and that you really do think of and act as if your dog were a furry human.

i hope you can understand that by doing this you are undercutting your own position about how dangerous a certain breed of dog is. if you don't understand that even your little ****zu or your doe-eyed retriever are killers, then please keep your dogs away from other people so you don't get anyone hurt.

some dogs are more aggressive than others. some dogs are also larger than others. some dogs are more energetic than others. some are more dominant than others. some are worriers, some are restless, some become neurotic if they don't have a job to work at.

these kinds of dogs are high-maintenance and should not be owned by just anyone. pits are included in this category, but so are border collies, chows, poodles, and huskies.

in fact, most dog breeds could be argued to be high maintenance in one way or another. people should be very cautious before deciding on getting a dog at all, and they should make absolutely certain that they can sacrifice the time, space, and energy required to keep that dog mentally and emotionally healthy.

most dog owners don't do that though; most dog owners buy a dog, let it sit in the house all day, neglect it, treat it as either an ornament or an irritating child, and then expect it to act appropriately when surrounded by toddlers and neighbor dogs.

is it really any wonder to you that these dogs end up biting kids?

here is a really good website if you want to learn more about human-dog interaction:
Dog Breed Info Center®, DBI
specifics on being a good pack leader:
Establishing and Keeping Alpha Position, Letting your dog know you are the boss
specifics on dog socialization:
Socializing your new puppy, Socialization
specifics on "human dog" syndrome (and the consequences):
The Human Dog - Treating a Dog like a Human
specifics on dog psychology:
Why did my dog do that when he knows it's bad? But does your dog really know it's bad?

now, i have discussed dogs in general. we have clarified that *all* dogs are aggressive, and that many dog breeds are among a "high maintenance" group. if you didn't follow me up to this point, i probably can't help you.

pits are actually much the same as any other dog. they have their specialties, and they have their weaknesses. their specialty is not rending foes limb from limb as many of you seem to believe. their specialty is actually in being a good family member. that seems a little broad, but that is their role. they have been bred to be loyal to a fault, to obey, to adore their human alphas, and to protect their human pack with their lives.

originally, the progenitors of what we now call pit bulls (note that even now, 'pit bull' refers to more than one subspecies of dog) were farm dogs. eventually they were bred for bull baiting, which at the time was an acceptable practice. this was a job, not a sport, and the dogs were bred and trained to be able to control a large bull. this required that the dogs be bred for physical power as well as aggressiveness.

sadly, that practice ended up becoming a "sport," though i use the term loosely, and people began to breed and train the dogs for fighting–hence the name.

note that even though they were bred for fighting, and earlier for bull baiting, they were also bred for complete submission to humans, because the masters needed utter control of their farmhand or their pit dog.

in this, they were largely successful; pits remain loyal to a fault to humans.

nowadays, pit fighting is not as widely accepted, and most pit bulls have never participated in the sport, nor been trained for it. despite popular rumor, pit bulls cannot lock their jaws in any sense of the word. they are stronger than many animals of their size and weight, however, and that should be taken into consideration with this breed as it should for any other of approximate physical capability.

further, pits do not inherently want to destroy anything and everything around them–i am sorry if this debunks your sole reason for hating them. they are dogs, not monsters, not machines, and not movie plot devices. they have the same needs and desires that other dogs have, and this does include hunting other animals.

despite this desire to hunt, even pits can be trained to be sociable with other animals (other dogs included). this requires a competent trainer though, and competent owners.

notice that throughout, we keep coming back to the idea that the owner, the trainer, the alpha, the handler, etc, is the direct correlating factor that determines whether a pit or any other dog remains a sociable animal (not a human), or whether it reverts to an overly aggressive, assert-by-violence menace.

in most cases, it is the owner, not the dog. exceptions are rare, just as they are in people.

in most cases, pits grow old and die without ever hurting anyone.

in most cases, owning a pit is indistinguishable from owning any other high maintenance dog–because they are dogs.

those of you that fear pit bulls, and don't bat an eyelash at poodles, pomeranians, and schnauzers do not understand dog psychology of your role as a pack alpha. and for crying out loud, if you have the delusion that you and the dog are somehow buddies and that you don't need to be a pack alpha, then you shouldn't own a dog.

what the majority of you are saying is that because you don't personally have a use for pit bulls, no one else should either. that is logically fallacious reasoning that shows in inability or refusal to critically analyze reality and separate it from your own desires.

those of you that still argue against pit bulls because you are not convinced that they aren't mindless killers, well honestly, i am not going to be able to convince you, so i won't try. i will address this for those that might still be sitting on the fence.

most dog-breed-attack statistics are taken from eye witness accounts, either by the victim or someone that saw what happened. it kind of has to be this way, as there are usually few cameras or expert witnesses around at the time of a dog attack.

most of these witnesses cannot tell a pit from another dog breed. there are multiple reasons for this (and if i miss any obvious ones, please add your insight). one of the foremost is that a pit bull is not a single subspecies, but a group of similar dogs that display similar traits and have been bred for similar jobs. that alone makes an eye witness testimony suspect. further, most normal humans don't have the canine education necessary to be able to distinguish between breeds at all. they might know a retriever or a lab when they see one, but they wouldn't be able to label a catahoula leopard hound from a dogo argentina if it (excuse the pun) bit the person in the ass.

further, with the amount of mixed breeds out there, positive identification becomes even more of a gamble. in short, statistics about dog attacks are highly subjective, and are not logically or scientifically obtained.

but that is one of the biggest proponents toward breed-banning legislation that is out there. sounds willfully ignorant to me.

however, even if we go by those numbers, things still don't add up to make pit bulls the terrorizing killers that our society has scapegoated them into being.

here is an interesting article posted on the louisiana society for cruelty to animals website.
Pit bull attack stats may surprise you (http://www.la-spca.org/dedication/talk/t_judge.htm - broken link)

eye-opening? i hope so.

from personal experience, pit bulls are normal dogs. they are high maintenance, energetic, easily bored dogs that can be loyal, intelligent pack members, or they can be shoe-chewing, dog-aggressive, human-suspicious, property-destructive animals. either way, they are still animals, and should be treated as such, not as humans, and not as humanity's four-legged enemy.

my dog loves other dogs (but wait, somewhere back in her lineage, her ancestors fought other dogs!), and loves other humans, including children (but wait, the nightly news said that pit bulls are crazed, baby-eating maniacs).

in fact, we chose matsi from the shelter specifically because she exhibited more of what we wanted in a house-living family dog than any of the others present over the period of almost a month when we would visit.

she has her faults (she wants to hunt down every bird and cat that she sees or thinks she sees; and she sneaks onto our bed when she thinks that we're not looking), but she also has her merits, and we have been happy to have her quirky, sometimes exuberant insanity in our house since then.

by the way, the most violently aggressive dog at the shelter was consistently a yellow lab that was much larger than matsi, and could have done much more physical damage to a human should it have attacked.

further, it was a golden retriever that tore the right side of my face up when i was a child (i still have scars on my cheek), and it was my parents' border collie that bit the newspaper boy last year because the dog didn't think the kid had the right to be in the yard that early in the morning.

if you have a dog–no matter what the breed–make sure you are a responsible owner. don't treat it like a human, don't forget that it is a pack-hunting predator, and don't wuss out on your job as its alpha. you bought it, now it is looking to you for the lead. if you hesitate, the dog will think that it needs to step up, and that is when all sorts of problems (including violent behavior) begin.

aaron out.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

I was one of those stupid my-dog-is-my-baby types when I got my first dog. I did research on breeds and on training, but let it slide--because well, you know, he was so "cute" and he was just a little lhasa apso--so friendly with everybody. Little did I know that when the breed books described lhasas as "chary of strangers," they meant "genetically geared to be a guard dog and hate strangers." And little did I know that "socialization and early and consistent training is crucial for lhasa apsos" meant "an untrained lhasa is a psycho-dog-from-hell." About 1-1/2 years in, he started nipping. My thinking: "Oh, it's just a phase. He'll grow out of it: "No, no, bubbie. Cuddle, cuddle." By year 2-1/2 he was psycho-dog-from-hell. At 3 years old, we could not have visitors to the house. Seriously. He would have ripped them apart. Finally hired a private trainer. She said, "Have him on lead when I arrive." Doorbell rang. Psycho-from-hell launches into lunge and growl mode, dragging me to the door. I open the door. The trainer looks at me, says hi, does not look at my dog (who is practically insane, lunging, eyes wild and drool dripping from his bared teeth), quietly takes the lead from my hand. Long story short: Within 5 minutes--and I am not kidding--her wish is his command. Within 20 minutes, he learned that he does not get to exit or enter a door before the human. He looks at her like she's the center of the world, tail wagging. She is in total control--merely through gentle correction and reward. He knows she means business. I have tears rolling down my face because, with her, my dog has magically transformed into Hollywood-perfect, model dog-of-the-year. Meanwhile, I'm babbling on about how "sensitive" he is, how he "just doesn't listen," how "sweet he is, really--you just have to be his friend," etc. The trainer is smiling patiently. Thus began what--for me--was a very, very difficult transition from total doormat to means-business-alpha. Learned all about fear-aggression, how anxious dogs are (and sometimes aggressive) when they are forced (they think) to take command since nobody else will, how desperate they are for leadership and routine, how utterly relaxed they become when they are relieved of the alpha role. How important consistency is in training--every day, several times a day--never break a rule. And how important positive reinforcement is in training. I was, in short, one of the stupidest dog owners around.
 
Old 05-01-2009, 04:57 PM
 
16 posts, read 30,622 times
Reputation: 24
Angry Ban Pit Bull Breeding

I agree with the idea of banning vicious dog breeds. Too many people and animals are killed each year and for what?
 
Old 05-01-2009, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Up in the air
19,112 posts, read 30,640,756 times
Reputation: 16395
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarom View Post
I agree with the idea of banning vicious dog breeds. Too many people and animals are killed each year and for what?

aaaaand here we go again.

There is no vicious breeds, only the owners that mistreated them.
 
Old 05-01-2009, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Missouri
3,645 posts, read 4,928,338 times
Reputation: 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarom View Post
I agree with the idea of banning vicious dog breeds. Too many people and animals are killed each year and for what?
I believe in banning ignorant people. Let's ban them all because they are breeding even more ignorance and don't care.
 
Old 05-01-2009, 05:25 PM
 
Location: New York, New York
4,906 posts, read 6,850,341 times
Reputation: 1033
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarom View Post
I agree with the idea of banning vicious dog breeds. Too many people and animals are killed each year and for what?
I think we should ban anyone that makes such a statement like yours from owning any pet.
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