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This is a very long post and for that I apologize for that, but it's very worth reading. I felt it deserved it's own thread.
Another poster had posted what she had heard Peter Fleckstein say about Obama's Health Care Plan. She wrote the page , section and even line number that he was references. Funny, this poster suggested we all read it...she obviously didn't read it herself, but posted what she thought was a "trusted" source. Unfortunately many people will just take his word for it and NOT read it for themselves. When I did, it's ASTONISHING how far the right stretches to place FEAR into the minds of the people.. and how FAR OFF they are... I mean these people are truly desperate to dissuade the American public away from this plan. ..and you have to wonder why.
Anyway.. the information she/he wrote is in black.. mine replies and even quotes from the bill are in blue.
Enjoy.. and you know what.. don't even take my word for it.. DO read it for yourself. Your eyes will be open to how badly the right is lying to all of you! AND don't even take Obama and the White House's word for it.. READ IT.. I did!
Pg 22 of the Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!
Page 22 talks about a government STUDY on different forms of health care coverage. .. Particularly Large group insured and self insured employer based health markets.
The difference between them and the risks faced by the self insured being able to pay obligations or otherwise becoming financially insolvent. Etc. NOWHERE on that page does it talk about auditing self insured businesses books.
> Pg 30 Sec 123 of bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you receive.
This talks about a government ADVISORY committee for both private and public options to RECOMMEND covered benefits and essential , enhanced and Premiume (in otherwords, to advise what level certain things falls under etc..
> Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED.
Rationed? NO. .this sets a STANDARD of CARE for the ESSENTIAL BENEFITS Package as defined in another section.. in otherwords.. a level of insurance that is the MINIMUM acceptable to be considered GOOD coverage and NOT underinsurance. As a matter of fact.. here is a line from the previous page under that section
10 does not impose any annual or lifetime limit
11 on the coverage of covered health care items and
12 services;
The subsequent sections also talk about what insurance has to cover MINIMALLY.. and INCLUDES maternity.. WHICH .. BTW. Is not ALWAYS covered under every plan available NOW!
It limits cost sharing.. in otherwords.. out of pocket expenses for the insured individual so as not to be exorbetent and therefore overly expensive making insurance at the MINIMUM level much more expensive BEYOND the monthly premiums for the insured.
>
And.. those lines you are referring to.. talk about MAXIMUMS that cost sharing.. ie: money out of the insureds pocket CAN NOT EXCEED.. NOWHERE in there does it mention ANYTHING about rationing care!!!
> Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your Health care Benefits for you. You have no choice in the decision.
WOW.. they really know how to twist things don’t they.
His job is to make sure that INSURANCE PLANS THAT ARE OUT THERE AND OFFERED ON THE EXCHANGE MEET THE MINIMUM STANDARD SET FORTH AND AS MENTIONED ABOVE.
Again.. this is in response to plans that basically offer NOTHING.. THIS is so that ALL OF US who purchase insurance can be CONFIDENT that there is a MINIMUM STANDARD with things SET OUT that we KNOW will be covered at the very BASIC standard level!!!
He is also in charge of setting up the exchange of plans.. in otherwords.. all those submitted into the exchange comply with the law in regards to cost sharing/ standards/etc.
>
> PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - Healthcare will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise.
NO.. it says that INSURANCE on the exchange can not be denied for discriminatory reasons.. in otherwords and illegal immigrant CAN purchase insurance. NOWHERE in there does it even USE the words illegal and immigrant. ..
>
> Pg 58 - Govt will have real-time access to individual finances & a National ID Healthcard will be issued.
Here is the text you are referring to
enable the real-time (or near real6
time) determination of an individual’s financial
7 responsibility at the point of service and, to the
8 extent possible, prior to service, including
9 whether the individual is eligible for a specific
10 service with a specific physician at a specific fa11
cility, which may include utilization of a ma12
chine-readable health plan beneficiary identi13
fication card;
>
Nowhere in there does it say ANYTHING About a National health Care CARD.. ONLY a BENEFITS CARD..which is basically your insurance ID card and talks about REAL TIME availability of information right there about what you are covered for and what your charges are. It cuts down on the paperwork.. and mistakes .
> Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access to your bank accounts for direct funds transfers.
>
NO.. it talks about standardized electronic Adminstrative Transactions.. in otherwords the Dr.s office and/or insurance company will automatically deduct your copay from your card. If you are on a government plan, then the government plan will withdraw your funds electronically ( ore really the doctor will at the point of transaction) this also eliminates paperwork.
BTW.. the DR. is the one who collects the copays NOT the insurance company be it a private or public company. AND. FYI .. most likely any insurance company ALREADY knows your bank account numbers etc… because it is there whenever you pay your bill!!
> PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).
to provide reim19
bursement to assist participating employment-based
20 plans with the cost of providing health benefits to
21 retirees and to eligible spouses, surviving spouses
22 and dependents of such retirees.
23 (
Huh? Acorn.. so Acorn is the only employer, employee group out there that provides insurance to retirees?? Yeah.. okay.. not one mention of ACORN in there AT ALL.
>
> Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating a Healthcare Exchange to bring private healthcare plans under Govt control.
No.. it’s setting up the exchange to make sure that plans SOLD to consumers meets the MINIMUM STANDARD of insurance.. Do you know how many people have insurance that is basically WORTHLESS and covers absolutely NOTHING of any substance?? And then that person thinking they were “insured” is actually NOT!! Not really?
It’s basically acting as a HUB of choices for individuals and businesses. AND in order to BE in that “exchange” you MUST meet quality standards set forth by the government. Simple to understand and it makes much sense!!
>
> PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private Healthcare plans in the Exchange
>
No.. once again.. it sets STANDARDS for the different levels.. so that you are getting a Basic if you pay for basic and arent’ thinkng you are paying for Premium when you are not getting the “level” deemed PREMIUM.
> PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specifics for Benefit Levels of Plans = The Government rations Healthcare based on cost benefits to government.
Rations.. LOL.. do you know or he know what rationing is?? NO. .it just sets the quality level for each level.. it doesn’t say that each person only gets X amount of dollars allotted to them or x amount of procedures.. Obviously the lame brain who made these comments does not know what they are talking about.. or they are really perverting what it actually says to scare people.. most of whom would not even do what I’m doing now.. actually READ each section. Geez.. it just blows my mind how ridiculous this is.
>
> PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic appropriation services or translation services for illegal aliens.
>
Hmm.. there are plenty people here legally for whom English language is not their first language.. Are they not entitled to fully understand their doctors, nurses or the medical forms they are given? We are the “melting pot” of the world are we not. Which means that there are many people that live here legally and otherwise who do not speak fluint English nor would understand more complex language involved in forms that would be more comfortable reading it in their own language. Says NOTHING about illegal immigrants. Heck there are people here illegally that speak English better than some people who are here legally. This assertion is just ridiculous and meant to appeal to the right wingers who want to throw out health care reform for their own citizens , who far outnumber illegals, because of their stance on immigration or animosity toward illegals.
> Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups like ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt Healthcare plan
What is wrong with this? It talks about these groups REACHING OUT to the most vulnerable of the population.. the ones most likely unable to afford a private plan and teaching them about their options of a public plan AND all those that will be part of the exchange. They are utilizing group/ groups that already have the ability and who are already working in an outreach capacity to reach people that need to be reached in order to pull them from the ranks of the uninsured INTO the ranks of the insured.
>
> -PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid.
>
Yeah.. what’s wrong with this. They haven’t elected to role and they qualify for FREE healthcare under Medicaid because of their income levels. .. which means that they can’t afford any of the private or even the public option in the exchange. Medicaid is FREE!! They do nothing and are enrolled in it automatically!! If they get ill or need to be treated for something.. .they are COVERED!! They would get it anyway because..they are POOR . So .. what is the problem.
> pg 124 lines 24-25 No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" allowed against Govt monopoly
yeah.. so.. basically other insurance companies can’t sue the government because they offer cheaper plans.. .which, btw, is the point of offering a “cheaper” plan.. so that people can afford it.
Hey.. if someone can afford to pay more and is truly afraid of the government.. then they won’t chose the public option and will choose the private. Given how there are many that “fear’ government health care, I’m sure the higher cost private companies will not have any problems attracting buyers for a little more. Plus.. the lower cost government option may actually encourage some price competition within the private sector. How? Well for one they’ll have to forego corporate excess in order to compete.. in otherwords.. they won’t be able to pay one executive an excessive salary of 14M… not really a bad thing AT ALL.
It protects the governments ability to actually PROVIDE an alternative affordable option to the public should they chose to
>
> pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ AMA - The Govt will dictate what wage you are allowed to make. (Wage limits).
NO.. .. here it is:
PHYSICIANS.—The Secretary shall provide
2 for the annual participation of physicians under the
3 public health insurance option, for which payment
4 may be made for services furnished during the year,
5 in one of 2 classes:
6 (A) PREFERRED PHYSICIANS.—Those phy7
sicians who agree to accept the payment rate
8 established under section 223 (without regard
9 to cost-sharing) as the payment in full.
10 (B) PARTICIPATING, NON-PREFERRED
11 PHYSICIANS.—Those physicians who agree not
12 to impose charges (in relation to the payment
13 rate described in section 223 for such physi14
cians) that exceed the ratio permitted under
15 section 1848(g)(2)(C) of the Social Security
16 Act.
It talks about Doctors that CHOSE to Accept the FEES are basically IN the public plan network!!!
How is this any different than a doctor that agrees to accept the “fees” set forth and negotiated by the private insurance companies. It doesn’t dictate by any means a cap on a Dr’s income or any other health care service income.. ONLY the FEES that will be paid for the covered patient under the PUBLIC OPTION Plan!
17> Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employers MUST enroll their employees into the public option plan. THEY HAVE NO CHOICE, and neither do the employees.
NO.. it says that an employer MUST provide coverage to its employers AND must do so from one of the insurance companies/plans offered in the Exchange.. again.. the exchange sets up STANDARDS… MINIMUM standards so as to eliminate sub standard insurance and coverage which basically is crap. And it makes sure that employers are offering adequate coverage to their employees AND it states that the employer must AUTOMATICALLY ENROLL employee in the plans that they select from the exchange..
It also states that an employer can not contribute less than a set amount (75% individual / 65% family) meaning that an individual will pay no more than 25% of the premium and a family 35% of the premium.
Yes.. it appears in this section that insurance is MANDATED.. but we all knew that.. No surprise. And there is a section that asseses fines for those not in compliance with the mandate. I believe for individuals it’s a 2% of income fine.
I have no problem with mandating of insurance. Car insurance is mandated the same way. You can’t lift pre-existing condition clauses without mandating coverage.
>
> Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay premiums for every employee, part time employees AND their families as well.
I think this is referencing the wrong page
>
> Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer with a payroll of $400,000 will have an 8% tax levied on all payroll.
Again.. this is the option if a company does not want to provide insurance.. and yes, it means either buy insurance or pay what amounts to a fine. Mandation of coverage…
>
> pg 150 Lines 9-13 Employers with payroll between $251,000 & 400,000 who does not provide in full, the public option, will have a 6% tax on all payroll levied.
Yes.. they do not have to buy insurance, but because they are smaller they pay a slightly lower fine.. Mandation of insurance coverage.
>
> Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC coverage according to Govt mandate, will be taxed at 2.5% of their income for healthcare. So, you will have government healthcare coverage, or you will be punished.
No. you don’t have to HAVE the government option or be punished…you have your choices of different options INCLUDING a public one. You are not forced to take the public one or even private. If not you will be assessed a fine of 2.5%. It’s not like they are automatically enrolling you in the government plan and deducting the money or adding the premium to your tax bill.You are simply paying into the system for being uninsured.. and rightfully so. Because if you get ill and sick, who do you think is going to pick up your bill. Tax payers. At least the fines you pay will help alleviate that bill paid by the rest of us should that uninsured person fall ill.
Remember.. those uninsured cost hospitals 37B in unpaid bills a year and the government much more. If people decide they still don’t want coverage, they SHOULD pay a fine to the government who will end up picking up their bill later. Nothing wrong with this. People will decide what is cheaper.. buying insurance or paying the 2.5% fine. Lets say you make $30K a year.. that is $780 dollar you’ll be paying> maybe a person making that much will elect to pay that cheaper fine than paying for the premiums offered on the exchange (including the government one). OR.. if they qualify for Medicaid they don’t’ have toworry.. they’ll have Medicaid at no cost AND no fine to boot.>
> Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay)
Non resident aliens does not mean illegal aliens. However, since illegals don’t really file tax returns anyway I don’t understand what your objection is..LOL.they NEVER pay taxes.. Illegals are undocumented in all senses of the word.
>
> Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Administration (GOVT) will have total and complete access to ALL your personal financial, bank and investment information.
They basically have access to your tax return (which the government already has) to determine whether you qualify for health exchange subsidies. Um.. the government already has access to all that information.. Who do you think you are submitting your tax returns to? Some privately owned corporation???
>
> PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that.
> You need to finish that sentence.. because it then goes on to say for a certain purpose.. under a certain section.. text below
The tax im15
posed under this section shall not be treated as tax
16 imposed by this chapter for purposes of determining
17 the amount of any credit under this chapter or for
18 purposes of section 55.’’.
19 (
> Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid, Seniors, low income, and poor.
No… it talks about FEES Paid to physicians NOT actual services.
>
> Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Wages for all doctors will be made the same. Specialists like Brain Surgeons will make the same money a General Practitioner makes.
No.. it talks about under the following categories of service provided the fees will be the same.. NOT over EVERYTHING provided by the specialists.. read the complete section below that that paragraph refers to; 9 ‘‘(5) SERVICE CATEGORIES.—For services fur10 nished on or after January 1, 2009, each of the fol11 lowing categories of physicians’ services (as defined 12 in paragraph (3)) shall be treated as a separate 13 ‘service category’: 14 ‘‘(A) Evaluation and management services 15 that are procedure codes (for services covered 16 under this title) for— 17 ‘‘(i) services in the category des18 ignated Evaluation and Management in the 19 Health Care Common Procedure Coding 20 System (established by the Secretary under 21 subsection (c)(5) as of December 31, 2009, 22 and as subsequently modified by the Sec23 retary); and VerDate Nov 24 200823:22Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 079200 PO 00000 Frm 00240 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\H3200.IH H3200 jlentini on DSKJ8SOYB1PROD with BILLS 241 •HR 3200 IH 1 ‘‘(ii) preventive services (as defined in 2 section 1861(iii)) for which payment is 3 made under this section. 4 ‘‘(B) All other services not described in 5 subparagraph (A). 6 Service categories established under this paragraph 7 shall apply without regard to the specialty of the 8 physician furnishing the service.’’.
> > PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Doctor's time. Govt. decides value of humans.
> It talks about the work and services of the DOCTOR.. NOT the value of the people the Doctor treats.. WOW.. how far the right will stretch!!!
> PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.
This pertains to the government in medicare/Medicaid arena.. NOT between private insurance and those companies, doctors etc. The government has every right to do just that…as private industry does just those things when pertaining to quality, cost, etc.
>
> PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs
Under Medicaid/medicare..no different than a private negotiates with each entity. This is NOT across the board.. this all falls under Medicaid/medicare.
>
> PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!
>
Rationing.. NO.. it talks about determining if some hospitals in the Medicaid/medicare network cost more than others that are just as effective is all. Nothing about limits on who gets what care or rationing.. Again.. a stretch and absurd accusation.
> Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals for what Govt deems preventable re-admissions.
Again.. as related to medicare.. NOT as related to anything else other than who they pay for what.. that is the right of Medicaid/medicare.
>
> Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Doctors that treat a patient during initial admission will be penalized.
>
Under medicare.. in otherwords, the Dr. that treated is responsible for that treatment. If his work is sloppy.. he’ll get a reduced payment for not doing it right the first time..
> Pg 317 L 13-20 PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Government dictates what Doctors can make and how much they can own.
Ah.. this is talking about when a Dr. under medicare refers a patient to a specific hospital. This si to prevent Dr’s from referring patients to a hospital based on monetary compensation above and beyond their fees by referring them to a hospital in which they have an “ownership” stake. It’s a conflict of interest of sorts.. kind of like a “kickback”. Makes sense. Again.. this is under MEDICARE/Medicaid only.
>
> Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt mandates hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
Again.. only pertains to hospitals that qualify as providers under Medicaid/Medicare.. NOT across the boards.
>
> pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input and approval is required. Can you say ACORN?!!
All falls under Medicaid/medicare.. has nothing to do with other reform private or government public option.
>
> Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates establishment of outcome based measures. Rationing
It’s going to make sure that patients utilizing services are actually having an good outcome of said service. In otherwords.. what doesn’t work will be thrown out in favor of what does. Makes sense. And again. . this is al under the Medicaid/medicare section .. NOT the section pertaining to private insurance and public insurance option, exchange etc.
>
> Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing people into the Govt plan.
If the plans do not meet the standards set forth under the criteria that they set up of MINIMUM standards in order to be a medicare/Medicaid provider, than they will not be a medicare/Medicaid provider. NOWHERE in that section does it say anything about then being pushed INTO the public option plan!!! THAT is a BOLD FACED LIE
> Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs persons for care. Can euthanasia be far behind for "undesirables"?
It means that someone can not enroll until the open enrollment period.. NOT that they can’t EVER enroll.
>
> Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Committee. Can you say HC by phone?
It’s an EXPANSION of the telehealth.. meant to help those in RURAL areas.. as the title of that section indicates ; Medicare Rural Access Protections.
> > PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consultation. Euthanasia and Doctor-Assisted Suicide.
Mandates.. NO it provides seniors with counseling on setting up living wills, health care proxies and so on so that they along with their families, are prepared for what may come. It says nothing about killing off old people or Assisted Suicide. It counsels families about PALATIVE care and HOSPICE!!! It counsels on why it’s important to SET YOUR DIRECTIVE of what actions YOU want your family to take FOR YOU in the event you are unable to make decisions for yourself.. like.. do you want to be on life support if that is the only way to sustain your life..etc.Many people are not even aware of what these things are.. do you have ANY idea the turmoil of a family member not knowing what you may or may not want in the event of complete incapacitation has on people. >
> Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, and assume power of attorney of all enrollees. Mandatory!
NOWHERE does it say that the State will then make the decision . And if someone hasn’t designated someone to make the decision, then what? Who does if the person can’t. Is it so wrong that if you are enrolled in medicare you have someone to make decision for you should you not be able to so that YOUR OWN WISHES are carried out? It says right there the PERSONS OWN WISHES.. NOT that of the state.
>
> PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death decisions to end your life.
Here it is.. it’s basically just saying that the practitioner will provide a list of resources..RESOURCES!! All of which will help a person make the decisions THEY WANT!!!
An explanation by the practitioner of the
20 continuum of end-of-life services and supports avail21
able, including palliative care and hospice, and bene22
fits for such services and supports that are available
23 under this title.
VerDate Nov 24 2008 00:08 Jul 15, 2009 Jkt 079200 PO 00000 Frm 00425 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\H3200.IH H3200 jlentini on DSKJ8SOYB1PROD with BILLSThe Govt will mandate how your life ends.
The government doesn’t mandate anything. It provides you with all your options!!
>
> Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "advance care planning consultant" will be used frequently as a patient's health deteriorates
> > PG 429 Lines 10-12 "advance care consultation" may include an ORDER to initiate end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV to terminate a life. >
No. .it talks about what constitutes a legal form of action set out by the patient for what THE PATIENT wants done as far as measures at the end of their life WHEN their health deteriorates.
Here is a line from it:
effectively communicates the individual’s
18 preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, in19
cluding an indication of the treatment and care de20
sired by the individual;
> Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
is signed and dated by a physician (as de9
fined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care
10 professional (as specified by the Secretary and who
11 is acting within the scope of the professional’s au12
thority under State law in signing such an order, in13
cluding a nurse practitioner or physician assistant)
14 and is in a form that permits it to stay with the in15
dividual and be followed by health care professionals
16 and providers across the continuum of care
Clearly they are talking about a physician that is well a legal physician.. not just any Joe Schmo on the street people.. LOL Come on.. >
> PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life
NO .. it talks about conditions in which the directive SET FORTH by the patient is carried out! NOT what the Government wants.. but what YOU, the person on medicare, set forth in your health proxy and living will.
>
> Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Services here!!?
>
ACORN?? Well unless ACORN meets all the medical criteria with their facilities set out in this section than Acorn won’t be doing ANYTHING regarding end of life. You know “community” “not for profit” could also include..oh CATHOLIC HOSPICES too you know!!!
> Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment to a community-based org.
See my statement above.
>
> PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means government will now be involved in marriage and family decisions.
LOL. No.. it talks about how it will cover marriage counseling and mental health services.. same as it covers any medical condition it covers. Unless you thinkn Senators are going to be sitting in the room telling you what to do?? Are these people aware of what therapy/counseling actually is? Another stretch and false information put forth by the right wingers.. and it’s ridiculous
From the bill:
The term ‘marriage and family therapist
9 services’ means services performed by a marriage and
10 family therapist (as defined in paragraph (2)) for the diag11
nosis and treatment of mental illnesses, which the mar12
riage and family therapist is legally authorized to perform
13 under State law
>
> Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services.
No.. it will provide coverage for mental illness..and just like anything else negotiated fees and approved physicians that comply with medicare/Medicaid standards.. no rationing. There isn’t a set amount of dollars for a set amount of people and no where does it even allude to that in the slightest.
>
> Here's the full Health Care bill that sits in the House. <http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.p df>
>
I never thought I'd have to do this..... city-data is getting sad.
A health care savings account covers squat! One week stay in a hospital with one illness would wipe out taht entire "savings". A weeks stay at a hospital is $50,000!
I beginning to think you don't want any other opinions. For someone who claims to actually read, you missed the part in my example where i said the insurance was intended "for catastrophic coverage or inpatient surgery ect..." the HSA plan would be for simple doctor visits, which means no $50,000 bills for inpatient care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy
Damn right it doesn't meet the minimum requirement.. because it still leaves the family vulnerable to financial ruin AND then leaves the rest of us holding the bill in hand.. unpaid by that family . .because their "savings" was inadequate.
Once again, your comment tells me that you did not read what i said. See above...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy
And what about someone like myself that has an ongoing issue.. savings won't do squat for me.. my medical bills on the individual market without the negotiating power of the big insrance companies leaves me with $600/month in medical bills. That is just about equal to the rent i pay on the house I live in.
You should be free to choose whatever type of insurance you want, if you do not like the plan, then you would be free to enroll under 0bamaCare, and let the bean counters decide what your fate will be. It is not the place of government to punish you if your private plan does not meet their view of "acceptable coverage"
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy
Where in there does it say that?
"Where in there does it say that?" It says it right where the government punishes anyone who dares to choose a plan that does not meet "acceptable coverage."
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy
Secondly..t here are individual premiums . The difference is that the government will not allow an insurance company to charge woman more.. which they do .. and is complete bull****.
Once 0bamCare goes live, people would be able to quit their current plan and enroll in 0bamaCare, yes? But that is not good enough for them, they want to punish anyone who chooses a private plan that they just don't like. It should not be the role of the federal government to punish people for not volenteering to enroll in the government plan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy
It does not give up your choice. This is another lie.
A "lie"?? I suppose you can keep your current plan if you like, but government will punish you every year that you choose to keep it. The American people lose the choice to design their own means of trying to lower the costs of health insurance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy
First off, the plan you have is grandfathered.
And as soon as renegotiate the policy it will no longer be under the grandfather clause, and if government deems it as not "acceptable coverage" the government will punish you and your employer every year that you choose to keep it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy
AND. most likely than not the employer coverage you have WILL fit that criteria.. all laid out there. If it doesn't ..it's crap insurance that really covers nothing anyway.. so why keep it?
They are free to choose 0bamacare, so why punish them it they do not want the government plan, and want a different plan? Its because government wants control over us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy
Most of the population doesn't even realize that their insurance is ****! Becasue most do not understand it all.
You sound like the politicians, we are just too stupid to know what's good for us, so the self appointed, really smart people, will decide our lives for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy
If you like the plan you have you can keep it.
Sure, and your employer will just have to pay the 8% payroll tax and you will pay 2.5% income tax punishment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy
If it is a crap plan.. then you find another that fits the minimum ..wether it's the public option or any one of the private options that meets with the criteria set out.. a criteria.. btw, that hte pubic plan must also meet.
And if you still like your plan, or choose a new plan that government does not like, get ready to be punished.
The only difference is, the government does not have to show a profit, or operate without waste, nor bother to crack down on fraudulent claims. The private sector has to worry about those things or they fail, the government just raises our taxes, or rations care or reduces doctor and hospital reimbursements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristansMommy
The post office is being affected by several things,.. Like the economy and the new technological age.. oh yeah.. and then the cost of HEALTHCARE, pensions etc.
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The GAO report said the Postal Service needs to renegotiate with the largest postal employee unions to reduce its compensation and benefit packages, which make up about 80 percent of its costs — compared to about 72 percent of costs at other federal agencies.
There are a lot of corporations and businesses that are just dying to dump off employee healthcare if 0bamaCare ever went live. And those that do not want 0bamaCare, and choose a plan different from the government plan, may be forced to pay a punishment tax.
Then those "evils" that you speak of are uniquely American.. because other democracies manage to have a form of health care for their people without compromising their democracy AND have a lower GDP on health care than the U. S.
I beginning to think you don't want any other opinions. For someone who claims to actually read, you missed the part in my example where i said the insurance was intended "for catastrophic coverage or inpatient surgery ect..." the HSA plan would be for simple doctor visits, which means no $50,000 bills for inpatient care.
Once again, your comment tells me that you did not read what i said. See above...
You should be free to choose whatever type of insurance you want, if you do not like the plan, then you would be free to enroll under 0bamaCare, and let the bean counters decide what your fate will be. It is not the place of government to punish you if your private plan does not meet their view of "acceptable coverage"
"Where in there does it say that?" It says it right where the government punishes anyone who dares to choose a plan that does not meet "acceptable coverage."
Once 0bamCare goes live, people would be able to quit their current plan and enroll in 0bamaCare, yes? But that is not good enough for them, they want to punish anyone who chooses a private plan that they just don't like. It should not be the role of the federal government to punish people for not volenteering to enroll in the government plan.
A "lie"?? I suppose you can keep your current plan if you like, but government will punish you every year that you choose to keep it. The American people lose the choice to design their own means of trying to lower the costs of health insurance.
And as soon as renegotiate the policy it will no longer be under the grandfather clause, and if government deems it as not "acceptable coverage" the government will punish you and your employer every year that you choose to keep it.
They are free to choose 0bamacare, so why punish them it they do not want the government plan, and want a different plan? Its because government wants control over us.
You sound like the politicians, we are just too stupid to know what's good for us, so the self appointed, really smart people, will decide our lives for us.
Sure, and your employer will just have to pay the 8% payroll tax and you will pay 2.5% income tax punishment.
And if you still like your plan, or choose a new plan that government does not like, get ready to be punished.
The only difference is, the government does not have to show a profit, or operate without waste, nor bother to crack down on fraudulent claims. The private sector has to worry about those things or they fail, the government just raises our taxes, or rations care or reduces doctor and hospital reimbursements.
There are a lot of corporations and businesses that are just dying to dump off employee healthcare if 0bamaCare ever went live. And those that do not want 0bamaCare, and choose a plan different from the government plan, may be forced to pay a punishment tax.
Bottom line..
If a private plan wants to be purchased..than it should meet a minimum required standard..
You have a choice.. purchase any one of the private approved plans.. OR purchaes the public paln.
OR pay the fine.. Simple.
Same thing is done by car insurance.. ALL insurance available must me state minimum standards to be deemed "acceptable" . As aresult there is no other insurance available that doesn't meet the minimum requirement.
The same principle should be applied to insurance.
IT's no longer about covering your own ass (purchasing insurance) than to make sure that the rest of us are not hurt in the process.
Uncompensated care cost taxpayers millions.. and hospitals lose 37B a year in uncompensated care. Who do you think pays for it? It doesn't just magically dissappear.. WE all have to pay for your "cheap" insurance that didn't cover SQUAT!
Inadequate insurance still leaves many bankrupt.
There are also many other provisions that make insurance adequate under the government plan.. like not having a lifetime limit that a major catastrophic illness could easily exhaust.. again.. leaving your insurance in adequate.
There is absolutelly NOTHING wrong with having a minimum standard that makes insurance and deems insurance to be adequate..
Rather than a flipping coporate ass taking your money and you end up with **** coverage!
If you purchase ap lan on the exchange that meets the minimum requirement.. you will not face a fine period. Public Option plan is NOT the only option available out there.
And why wouldn't employers drop their insurance plans.. they should. It's killing American companies.. Insurance shouldn't be tied to employment period! This way a person can keep their insurance when they swtich jobs and it has nothing to do with the job they are doing. I see nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
Wow.. another empty argument.. the "You want a free lunch argument"..LOL . .. yeah..okay.. that has been argued ad nauseum AND I just put a new thread up on just that..
Try understanding the health care problem first before you start throwing out empty baseless arguments to reform.
I do understand healthcare. I work in it. I see the problems with it daily. I see how Medicaid and Medicare do not cover everything.
There are problems with insurance, and I know first hand. But you will have those same problems under National Healthcare.
I am telling you that you won't get what you think politicians are promising you. You should know by now, you never get what politicians promise you, and you should want to protect yourself from them taking over your life.
You're not the only person in the world with a hard life. But when you expect a government to take care of you, you hand your liberties over to them on a platter.
You are a very angry person, and you need to realize other people out here are not living on Cloud Nine. And when you choose something when you are angry or hurting, and that is what the politicians are counting on, you're being suckered in.
You have a choice.. purchase any one of the private approved plans.. OR purchaes the public paln..
The Democrats have acknowledged they do NOT HAVE THE VOTES for the Public Option alternative. Evidently, if, and its now a BIG IF, this legislation were to pass, it will be WITHOUT THE PUBLIC OPTION provision.
The Democrats have acknowledged they do NOT HAVE THE VOTES for the Public Option alternative. Evidently, if, and its now a BIG IF, this legislation were to pass, it will be WITHOUT THE PUBLIC OPTION provision.
Well that's just great.
once again.. big ****ing insurance companies managed to keep us held by the balls..
Lovely.. just lovely.
I sure do hope hten that that not for profit insurance althernative mentioned happens.
Otherwise.. you can thank the insurance companies for continually raping us up the butt.. and then sit there and laugh as we celebrate their victory with them.. completley seeminglly unaware how we have let them manipulate the masses.
Wow people.. you really do enjoy having your nuts in a vice don't you?
You are a very angry person, and you need to realize other people out here are not living on Cloud Nine. And when you choose something when you are angry or hurting, and that is what the politicians are counting on, you're being suckered in.
As opposed to throwing away something based on complete ignorance and outright lies..
Yeah..okay.
Cutting off their noses to spite their face.
Just know.. the insurance companies and corporate American have definately manipulated you and all their little sheep into turning against your own government.. so that they can continue to profit off your back and others lives.
It's really quite sad.. oh well..I guess this country is going down the tubes. .. to hell in a handbasket..
At least I know that I was for something that could have turned it around.. the rest of you just played into corporates hands..and allowed yourself to be easily manipulated and swayed. It's a sad thing indeed.
If a private plan wants to be purchased..than it should meet a minimum required standard..
You have a choice.. purchase any one of the private approved plans.. OR purchaes the public paln.
OR pay the fine.. Simple.
Same thing is done by car insurance.. ALL insurance available must me state minimum standards to be deemed "acceptable" . As aresult there is no other insurance available that doesn't meet the minimum requirement.
The same principle should be applied to insurance.
IT's no longer about covering your own ass (purchasing insurance) than to make sure that the rest of us are not hurt in the process.
Uncompensated care cost taxpayers millions.. and hospitals lose 37B a year in uncompensated care. Who do you think pays for it? It doesn't just magically dissappear.. WE all have to pay for your "cheap" insurance that didn't cover SQUAT!
Inadequate insurance still leaves many bankrupt.
There are also many other provisions that make insurance adequate under the government plan.. like not having a lifetime limit that a major catastrophic illness could easily exhaust.. again.. leaving your insurance in adequate.
There is absolutelly NOTHING wrong with having a minimum standard that makes insurance and deems insurance to be adequate..
Rather than a flipping coporate ass taking your money and you end up with **** coverage!
If you purchase ap lan on the exchange that meets the minimum requirement.. you will not face a fine period. Public Option plan is NOT the only option available out there.
And why wouldn't employers drop their insurance plans.. they should. It's killing American companies.. Insurance shouldn't be tied to employment period! This way a person can keep their insurance when they swtich jobs and it has nothing to do with the job they are doing. I see nothing wrong with that whatsoever.
You don't find it odd, that the federal government would go so far as to punish people who chose a healthcare plan that the government did not approve of, even if they have the choice to freely choose the government plan if they wanted to?
I simply do not want the federal government to duplicate the glorious failures of cost overruns, waste, fraud and abuse of Medicaid, Medicare and roll it all into 0bamaCare.
Right the list of things you think are wrong with our current healthcare, and lets fix them, and not just put government in control of it, and 14% more of the GDP, and call it fixed.
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I suppose you can keep your current plan if you like, but government will punish you every year that you choose to keep it. The American people lose the choice to design their own means of trying to lower the costs of health insurance.
It's a sad thing indeed.
