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Statistics show that your parents' wealth is the single biggest factor in determining your own wealth. That's not self-determination.
You haven't demonstrated that the wealthy have earned anything. It's the rich who are doing the thieving and pillaging and redistributing (but they call it rent-seeking).
Statistics show that wealth levels are linked to educational levels. Better educated parents tend to have better educated children. They tend to teach their children how to make, save, invest money (I know, UNFAIR PRIVILEGE OF BIRTH!). They tend to live in communities with better educational systems, and hang out with better educated peer groups.
Tell me again why you seem to be singularly focused on taking money from the wealthy because they have not "earned anything," rather than focusing on building a system from the bottom up which provides more equitable educational opportunity and knowledge/training/path for improving status and increasing wealth.
Your only solution here seems to be to take from others what you have not earned. Any other ideas?
Statistics show that wealth levels are linked to educational levels. Better educated parents tend to have better educated children. They tend to teach their children how to make, save, invest money (I know, UNFAIR PRIVILEGE OF BIRTH!). They tend to live in communities with better educational systems, and hang out with better educated peer groups.
Tell me again why you seem to be singularly focused on taking money from the wealthy because they have not "earned anything," rather than focusing on building a system from the bottom up which provides more equitable educational opportunity and knowledge/training/path for improving status and increasing wealth.
Your only solution here seems to be to take from others what you have not earned. Any other ideas?
You're basically just quoting my own argument back to me with sarcasm marks and saying "what now???", so I don't know what kind of response you expect from me. But anyway, the topic of the thread was about ripping the undeserved wealth away from the wealthy, not about the plight of the poor per se. Bringing up the poor in this context is really to provide contrast between the lives of the normals and the aristocracy. I think it was this thread where I already argued previously that a society with a few people having dynastic control over the majority of the wealth was bad, even if those people were initially chosen by a fair lottery. Nobody with billions deserves it, because nobody can deserve such wealth. Nobody deserves to be king, because we shouldn't have kings. Kings are bad for society. It doesn't matter if it's the person with the highest IQ or best marathon time or best businessman, they shouldn't have it.
You're basically just quoting my own argument back to me with sarcasm marks and saying "what now???", so I don't know what kind of response you expect from me. But anyway, the topic of the thread was about ripping the undeserved wealth away from the wealthy, not about the plight of the poor per se. Bringing up the poor in this context is really to provide contrast between the lives of the normals and the aristocracy. I think it was this thread where I already argued previously that a society with a few people having dynastic control over the majority of the wealth was bad, even if those people were initially chosen by a fair lottery. Nobody with billions deserves it, because nobody can deserve such wealth. Nobody deserves to be king, because we shouldn't have kings. Kings are bad for society. It doesn't matter if it's the person with the highest IQ or best marathon time or best businessman, they shouldn't have it.
You made no such argument.... But back to the topic of stealing from the wealthy because they have "undeserved wealth." What have you determined is the net worth level where "nobody can deserve such wealth?" 1 billion? 1 million?
Speaking of kings... Are you the king of determining what wealth one deserves?
BTW, I do think the "king" of the high IQ, fastest runner, best businessman, best musician, best engineer, best teacher, etc... is good for society as they are sharing their gifts with society and pushing forward achievement of the human race. Those with the gifts of "kings" are naturally rewarded, whether by wealth, power, prestige, adulation, favor... SO UNFAIR. Are you against all rewards for "kings" or just big monetary ones?
You made no such argument.... But back to the topic of stealing from the wealthy because they have "undeserved wealth." What have you determined is the net worth level where "nobody can deserve such wealth?" 1 billion? 1 million?
Speaking of kings... Are you the king of determining what wealth one deserves?
BTW, I do think the "king" of the high IQ, fastest runner, best businessman, best musician, best engineer, best teacher, etc... is good for society as they are sharing their gifts with society and pushing forward achievement of the human race. Those with the gifts of "kings" are naturally rewarded, whether by wealth, power, prestige, adulation, favor... SO UNFAIR. Are you against all rewards for "kings" or just big monetary ones?
I'm against anyone being able to dominate their fellow citizens in what's supposed to be a democracy. Which, by the way, is how the "wealth one deserves" should be determined. I think a society where the poorest 20% hold 1% of the wealth, and the richest 20% own 60% of the wealth, would be a good starting point. But right now we have entire cities whose fates are bound up in the hands of a few wealthy individuals.
I'm against anyone being able to dominate their fellow citizens in what's supposed to be a democracy. Which, by the way, is how the "wealth one deserves" should be determined. I think a society where the poorest 20% hold 1% of the wealth, and the richest 20% own 60% of the wealth, would be a good starting point. But right now we have entire cities whose fates are bound up in the hands of a few wealthy individuals.
So, even you think an "average" person in the upper class should have 60 times as much as an "average" person in the lower class? I like a lot of your points, but that's still a truly grotesque imbalance in economic democracy.
So, even you think an "average" person in the upper class should have 60 times as much as an "average" person in the lower class? I like a lot of your points, but that's still a truly grotesque imbalance in economic democracy.
Nobody in any class should have anything unless they earn it. You have no value aside from what you are and what you do.
It's amazing how those who do nothing and are nothing want to rule the world and divide the spoils of the productive and good people.
So, even you think an "average" person in the upper class should have 60 times as much as an "average" person in the lower class? I like a lot of your points, but that's still a truly grotesque imbalance in economic democracy.
Is there a word to describe when one collectivist thinks another collectivist is not going far enough in expropriating the productivity of the good people?
So, even you think an "average" person in the upper class should have 60 times as much as an "average" person in the lower class? I like a lot of your points, but that's still a truly grotesque imbalance in economic democracy.
I basically quoted what I roughly remember as the distribution people think we already have, as I think that would be a politically attainable starting point. But I'm happy to hear what you think the figures should be. I haven't really tried to math out my thoughts on the specific target numbers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella
Nobody in any class should have anything unless they earn it. You have no value aside from what you are and what you do.
It's amazing how those who do nothing and are nothing want to rule the world and divide the spoils of the productive and good people.
99% of the work to create our society was done before you were born. Don't have such a high opinion of yourself.
99% of the work to create our society was done before you were born. Don't have such a high opinion of yourself.
That doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. You still don't have the right to take things from others because you need them. You still have no claim on the wealth of others for your own unearned benefit. And in 5,000 years, when 99.999% of society will be built, any sniveling collectivists who are born then also won't have any right to steal the wealth of others. But we all know they will still be trying...
Is there a word to describe when one collectivist thinks another collectivist is not going far enough in expropriating the productivity of the good people?
Perhaps the blind leading the dumb?
Yes, and some scary views exposed in this thread... The support of theft of individual rights/property because "they don't deserve it." The reluctance to address any other individual path to prosperity (e.g. education, hardwork, risk-taking, etc.) and only offering the "solution" to take from the "undeservedly wealthy." The illogical over appeal to base emotion (e.g. stories of toddlers being shot). The palpable disdain for those who have achieved anything (e.g. previous poster lamenting "It doesn't matter if it's the person with the highest IQ or best marathon time or best businessman, they shouldn't have it.").
Individual thought, achievement and self-determination are major risks to the collectivist movement.
"The advocates of collectivism are motivated not by a desire for men’s happiness, but by hatred for man ... hatred of the good for being the good; ... the focus of that hatred, the target of its passionate fury, is the man of ability."Ayn*Rand Lexicon
"Whatever crushes individuality is despotism, whether it professes to be enforcing the will of God or the injunctions of men."-- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
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