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I let the the lack of super bowl appearances slide in Reid's case.
He's probably the only guy you can say that about. That's how great his resume is. I even forgot to mention that he drafted Nick Foles. The guy has an eye for talent at the position to say the least. He didn't just draft Mahomes he traded up to get him. He wasn't afraid to go after Mike Vick because he new he could get the most out of him. As limited as Vick was as a passer he by far had his best season under Reid after nearly a three year layoff and physically no longer being in his prime.
Throw in 20 seasons and counting and that is a heck of a run for a coach. Very few coaches will coach as long as he has. It's too bad he has only now landed a QB like Mahomes and not 10 years ago when he was 50. At the age of 60 I wonder how many years he has left. Hopefully many more, but let's just say he probably hasn't made the best dieting choices throughout his life and people his age and weight always have to worry about heart ailments.
I still like Reid over most all those guys you have listed.
The biggest difference between Andy Reid and the 5 Head Coaches you have listed is the other 5 had most all of their success come with one Future HOF QB. Tomlin, McCarthy and Payton fall under that category specifically. Dungy and Carrol have had some success outside of Wilson and Peyton Manning. Reid had success with McNabb, Vick, Smith and now Mahomes. Multiple guys. And although all four were very good to great QBs under Reid there might be just one future HOFer in the group. Pretty much whomever Reid handpicks as his QB, you can count on them playing at an above average level.
Reid has longevity on his side as well. He's been coaching at a high level for 20 seasons. He's taken his team to the playoffs in 70% of his seasons as a head coach. Only Tony Dungy has a higher percentage at 84%. And with Reid having coached 7 or 8 more seasons than the other coaches you would expect him to have a lower percentage than the other coaches just based on the fact that things tend to even out over time. But so far this isn't the case for Reid.
How successful will McCarthy, Payton and Tomlin be when they are not coaching Rodgers, Big Ben and Brees respectively? We will find out pretty soon.
Also, I can't imagine McCarthy ever coming close to getting in even with his one ring. And I would expect him to get in over Tomlin and Payton as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher
I let the the lack of super bowl appearances slide in Reid's case.
He's probably the only guy you can say that about. That's how great his resume is. I even forgot to mention that he drafted Nick Foles. The guy has an eye for talent at the position to say the least. He didn't just draft Mahomes he traded up to get him. He wasn't afraid to go after Mike Vick because he new he could get the most out of him. As limited as Vick was as a passer he by far had his best season under Reid after nearly a three year layoff and physically no longer being in his prime.
Throw in 20 seasons and counting and that is a heck of a run for a coach. Very few coaches will coach as long as he has. It's too bad he has only now landed a QB like Mahomes and not 10 years ago when he was 50. At the age of 60 I wonder how many years he has left. Hopefully many more, but let's just say he probably hasn't made the best dieting choices throughout his life and people his age and weight always have to worry about heart ailments.
Uh, Reid has a lower win percentage than all of these guys except Pete Carroll in the regular season. Reid has the worst postseason record of all of these coaches...
You let Reid's spotty postseason resume pass, but that isn't how this works. His postseason and records overall are gonna be directly compared to his peers, the guys he coached against. Andy Reid is a Top 5 coach of his era but it's a hard sell to start proclaiming he's much better than that, especially when you stack his resume side by side to his peers. It's also about narrative. When Sean Payton's candidacy comes, he will be immortalized for turning around what was probably the worst ever franchise upon his arrival. Not only does he beat Reid head to head in resume, but he is symbolic of an entire franchise. The only question about Payton will be how they view his involvement in Bountygate at that time, but other than that, Payton is a lock...
I don't think Tomlin or McCarthy are better coaches than Reid, but those guys have won the big one. Tomlin has been to the Super Bowl twice, which puts him on the short list of coaches with multiple Super Bowl appearances anyway. Reid ain't getting in before him with no title...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz
There are only 24 coaches in the HOF dating back to the 1920's....
Dungy is already in the HOF by the way....
Reid is at best the 3rd best coach of this era certainly behind Belichick by a few miles and I would put Carroll ahead as well...
As things currently stand I don't think he has a prayer of making the HOF, Levy got in but he made it to 4 straight Super Bowls.
Unless Reid wins 1 or more Super Bowls he ain't getting into the HOF and I believe for coaches Super Bowl appearances and wins are absolutely necessary.
Honestly probably a moot argument because I can't imagine KC not winning 1 or more SB's with Mahomes, that kid is ridiculous and if Reid gets a SB win then I think he is a lock....probably even an appearance or two more even if losses a la Levy...
But he absolutely needs the Super Bowls, more than his 1 current appearance, to get into Canton....
I forgot about Dungy!
I agree with this post in full, pretty much. Carroll is definitely a better coach of the two. McCarthy, Payton, Tomlin, Reid are all around similar stature to me, but as you mentioned, those guys have rings (and better records period in both the regular season and postseason...
I really like Andy Reid and have supported him from the very start. All coaches have weaknesses and bad games, and I want Reid to get into Canton. I think he could get in there, if he coaches 30+ years and wins at the same clip, even with no Super Bowls (it'll be a longevity play, the argument would be he coached longer than almost anyone and sustained excellence throughout, just couldn't win the big one). But admittedly, this is a hypothetical...
Better regular season record doesn’t mean much. As I pointed out only Dungy made the playoffs at a higher rate than Reid. And as I also pointed out, you would expect Reid to have a worse winning percentage and worse playoff appearance percentage than the others due to the fact he has coached 7 or 8 more years than the others. But infact, Reid has a higher percentage of making the playoffs.All this while not having an all time great QB.
McCarthy has one super bowl victory and only one appearance with possibly a top 5 all time QB his entire 13 years coaching. That’s a negative on his resume.
Same thing for Payton. Entire coaching career he also had a possible top 5 all time QB. Only one appearance and one Lombardi. Another negative on the resume. And these guys and their talented QBs didn’t even have to go through Peyton or Brady annually to get there.
We will see what the future holds. As Blue pointed out it looks like Reid after twenty years is finally paired with an elite QB. And at the same time these other coaches are about to, or did, in McCarthy’s case, lose their elite QBs.
Better regular season record doesn’t mean much. As I pointed out only Dungy made the playoffs at a higher rate than Reid. And as I also pointed out, you would expect Reid to have a worse winning percentage and worse playoff appearance percentage than the others due to the fact he has coached 7 or 8 more years than the others. But infact, Reid has a higher percentage of making the playoffs.All this while not having an all time great QB.
McCarthy has one super bowl victory and only one appearance with possibly a top 5 all time QB his entire 13 years coaching. That’s a negative on his resume.
Same thing for Payton. Entire coaching career he also had a possible top 5 all time QB. Only one appearance and one Lombardi. Another negative on the resume. And these guys and their talented QBs didn’t even have to go through Peyton or Brady annually to get there.
We will see what the future holds. As Blue pointed out it looks like Reid after twenty years is finally paired with an elite QB. And at the same time these other coaches are about to, or did, in McCarthy’s case, lose their elite QBs.
We'll agree to disagree on the significance of regular season winning. I think it means something, and I think how many division titles and playoff appearances account for something as well, so it does mean something that Reid makes the playoffs at a higher rate than almost anyone...
It becomes a greater significance once you get into the postseason, and he has the worst postseason resume of the bunch, and the only one of the group without a ring. Those have to weigh heavily, especially when, numbers aside, you take into account the amount of times his team's postseason failures are directly attributable to his decision making. All coaches do this, even Belichixk has goofed in the playoffs before that led to his team's demise, but this is Reid's reputation. He has to reverse it...
Also, if we're gonna be consistent, you gotta apply the same standard to Reid that you give to Payton and McCarthy. Reid didnt have an All-Time QB, but lets not pretend he didn't have Donovan McNabb for many years, who was a Top 6 QB of his era. Reid had one of the six best quarterbacks of his era and coached the majority of his career in the NFC, where he didn't have to go through Manning or Brady (or Ben) either. He made the NFC title game 5 times in Philly, the fact if the matter is that many of those Eagles teams were loaded, and he had an elite QB of his era. They were good enough to win a Super Bowl...
Seemingly, he has the best QB of his career now, but I feel like this is an excuse for Reid's Philly shortcomings. A number of those Eagles teams were as good or better than the '18 Chiefs. And while Mahomes is a unique talent with seemingly limitless potential, he doesn't have a resume better than McNabb yet. So we'll see how Reid can do with Mahomes!
I don’t see how a head coach makes the HOF on one Super Bowl appearance where they demonstrated really poor game management.
As a Patriots fan, I remember that game well. The Patriots had a 10 point lead with 5:40 left and the Eagles on their own 21 yard line. The Eagles used a full huddle and the game clock was down to 1:48 when they scored. The Patriots recovered the on-side kick. The Patriots ran three conservative running plays and punted. The ball was pinned to the 4 yard line with no timeouts and 46 seconds left. There wasn't enough time left to have any shot at getting the ball into field goal range.
With reasonable game management, the Eagles could have scored with 3+ minutes left in the game and done a normal kickoff. A defensive stop and there would have been plenty of time to score 3 points. I remember watching the clock incredulous that the Eagles were taking 20+ seconds to run plays. Don't all teams practice no huddle for exactly that situation?
As a Patriots fan, I remember that game well. The Patriots had a 10 point lead with 5:40 left and the Eagles on their own 21 yard line. The Eagles used a full huddle and the game clock was down to 1:48 when they scored. The Patriots recovered the on-side kick. The Patriots ran three conservative running plays and punted. The ball was pinned to the 4 yard line with no timeouts and 46 seconds left. There wasn't enough time left to have any shot at getting the ball into field goal range.
With reasonable game management, the Eagles could have scored with 3+ minutes left in the game and done a normal kickoff. A defensive stop and there would have been plenty of time to score 3 points. I remember watching the clock incredulous that the Eagles were taking 20+ seconds to run plays. Don't all teams practice no huddle for exactly that situation?
As and Eagles fan, I remember that game better than you. So unbelievably frustrating!!!
As a Patriots fan, I remember that game well. The Patriots had a 10 point lead with 5:40 left and the Eagles on their own 21 yard line. The Eagles used a full huddle and the game clock was down to 1:48 when they scored. The Patriots recovered the on-side kick. The Patriots ran three conservative running plays and punted. The ball was pinned to the 4 yard line with no timeouts and 46 seconds left. There wasn't enough time left to have any shot at getting the ball into field goal range.
With reasonable game management, the Eagles could have scored with 3+ minutes left in the game and done a normal kickoff. A defensive stop and there would have been plenty of time to score 3 points. I remember watching the clock incredulous that the Eagles were taking 20+ seconds to run plays. Don't all teams practice no huddle for exactly that situation?
More recently the Chiefs playoff loss in the Divisional Round of the 2015 post season was another example of astounding clock mismanagement by Reid. And, incidentally it was also against the Patriots. The final score was 27-20 but the Chiefs were never really a credible threat to win that game. Trailing 27-13 the Chiefs forced a punt, which led to a touchback. With 6:29 remaining and needing 2 touchdowns to tie the game, Reid took until 1:13 remaining to punch it in. What's really incredible is they reached the red zone with 3 minutes remaining and still took until 1:13 to score. It was so bad an example of clock management that I wondered if Reid had actually conceded defeat when the drive started.
Let’s not compare McNabb to Rodgers and Brees. One won’t make the HOF. The other two are first ballot. McNabb likely benefited from being coached by Reid. I wouldn’t say the same for the Rodgers and McCarthy tandem. Brees and Payton do seem like a good fit. Similar to how Brady and Belicheck are both equally responsible for the Patriots success. But like Brady, Brees is an elite talent. McNabb is not close to that level.
McNabb is worth mentioning when you feel it's necessary to say Reid never had a HOF QB, because it implies Mahomes is a HOF QB, and he very well may be but we don't know that after one year...
McNabb is worth mentioning when you feel it's necessary to say Reid never had a great QB, because Reid had teams as good or better than this Chiefs team. And McNabb wasn't some replacement level quarterback. He was a great player for a decade.Reid couldn't win with him, but had far superior defensive personnel in Philly and an offense that was routinely amongst the NFL's best....with Donovan McNabb manning the controls...
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