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Like any other addiction you'll quit when you want to and not before.
Addiction is not a choice. A heavy drinker or recreational drug user has a choice. An addict does not have choice. It is the polar opposite of choice. You can not expect an addict to take advantage of themselves like this and for them to liberate themselves from an addiction simply through choice. Maybe some do, but the vast majority don't. Learning that there is a difference between addiction and choice is not easy. It's far easier to blame the addict as generating their own behaviors through their own choice. Addiction and choice are not compatible words and even the addict can misinterpret their ability to choose.
There's a reason why the 12 steps model is so successful and that is because it liberates the addict from their choices. Whether by design or disease, they have happily relinquished their freedom and ability to choose. There are addicts who desperately want out of their addiction or addictions but can not find the willpower to leave whatever is causing them so much distress. I can not believe that this discussion still exists, that there is such an intolerance towards an idea that not absolutely everything is a choice, and maybe we forget in these consumer-choice society times that not everything is down to choice. Inducing a patient into becoming chemically dependent on a drug and throwing your hands up to leave them to make their own decisions is a tried-and-tested recipe for disaster. You can quit a bad behavior, but you can't quit an addiction.
Addiction is not a choice. A heavy drinker or recreational drug user has a choice. An addict does not have choice. It is the polar opposite of choice. You can not expect an addict to take advantage of themselves like this and for them to liberate themselves from an addiction simply through choice. Maybe some do, but the vast majority don't. Learning that there is a difference between addiction and choice is not easy. It's far easier to blame the addict as generating their own behaviors through their own choice. Addiction and choice are not compatible words and even the addict can misinterpret their ability to choose.
There's a reason why the 12 steps model is so successful and that is because it liberates the addict from their choices. Whether by design or disease, they have happily relinquished their freedom and ability to choose. There are addicts who desperately want out of their addiction or addictions but can not find the willpower to leave whatever is causing them so much distress. I can not believe that this discussion still exists, that there is such an intolerance towards an idea that not absolutely everything is a choice, and maybe we forget in these consumer-choice society times that not everything is down to choice. Inducing a patient into becoming chemically dependent on a drug and throwing your hands up to leave them to make their own decisions is a tried-and-tested recipe for disaster. You can quit a bad behavior, but you can't quit an addiction.
Kinda like telling the terminal cancer patient "You can stop dying when you want to !"
Alcoholism is tough. I'm 24 years old, already had my first DUI, and have slowly learned over the course of the last two years that I "self-medicate" everything from boredom, to stress, to happiness, and everything else to alcohol.
Both my parents are pretty heavy drinkers.
I used to think that you can just trick yourself or make yourself drink in moderation if you are an alcoholic. And many days, even most days this works. But then I have those days where I drink 12+ beers. I drink fast, and I drink hard. I stick to beer, but like the darker stuff. I drink intelligently, but I drink a lot. I don't think I'm as bad as a lot of people, but I see how easily I dipped into it and how much money I've wasted already in my four short years of drinking.
Alcoholism is tough. I'm 24 years old, already had my first DUI, and have slowly learned over the course of the last two years that I "self-medicate" everything from boredom, to stress, to happiness, and everything else to alcohol.
Both my parents are pretty heavy drinkers.
I used to think that you can just trick yourself or make yourself drink in moderation if you are an alcoholic. And many days, even most days this works. But then I have those days where I drink 12+ beers. I drink fast, and I drink hard. I stick to beer, but like the darker stuff. I drink intelligently, but I drink a lot. I don't think I'm as bad as a lot of people, but I see how easily I dipped into it and how much money I've wasted already in my four short years of drinking.
I think total abstinence is the way to go.
Good thinking. If you make it a year w/o a drink of alcohol you may not be an alcoholic. If you don't
you should try some AA meetings to learn about alcoholism. It could be the difference between life & death.
Addiction is not a choice. A heavy drinker or recreational drug user has a choice. An addict does not have choice. It is the polar opposite of choice. You can not expect an addict to take advantage of themselves like this and for them to liberate themselves from an addiction simply through choice. Maybe some do, but the vast majority don't. Learning that there is a difference between addiction and choice is not easy. It's far easier to blame the addict as generating their own behaviors through their own choice. Addiction and choice are not compatible words and even the addict can misinterpret their ability to choose.
There's a reason why the 12 steps model is so successful and that is because it liberates the addict from their choices. Whether by design or disease, they have happily relinquished their freedom and ability to choose. There are addicts who desperately want out of their addiction or addictions but can not find the willpower to leave whatever is causing them so much distress. I can not believe that this discussion still exists, that there is such an intolerance towards an idea that not absolutely everything is a choice, and maybe we forget in these consumer-choice society times that not everything is down to choice. Inducing a patient into becoming chemically dependent on a drug and throwing your hands up to leave them to make their own decisions is a tried-and-tested recipe for disaster. You can quit a bad behavior, but you can't quit an addiction.
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I agree.
But a sober alcoholic can still behave like a drunk alcoholic.
I know AA addresses this, but an alcoholic's behavior patterns may linger on for life. I've known men and women who have been regular AA members for many years who continued to act like irresponsible drunks.
I have also known some folks who were drunks, and sobered up through AA or by other means, and dropped their most destructive behaviors, even if they continued with others less destructive. Those who do change always say that changing was harder than getting and staying sober.
Some are so messed up that sometimes, I wished they were happy drunks again. I know that they were not really happy, but they could function better with a couple of shots in them. My deceased mother-in-law was like that. She was mostly functional from 7 a.m to 7 p.m., and held down a good job until she retired, but drank steadily from 7 in the evening until she passed out at about 11. In retirement, she did the same thing. She was a drag to be around, drunk or sober. I'm sure now she was never completely sober.
My wife fled when she was 18 and never looked back.
Addicts are immoderate people. I don't think one can ever learn moderation when it comes to their preferred drug. With them, it's all or nothing.
Maybe because there's a weird myth out there that you can't smell vodka on someone's breath. I don't know why people believe that, because you most certainly can. They smell like a pure alcohol distillery.
I've wondered if Vodka isn't more addictive than other alcohol just because the worst alcoholics I've ever known were on Vodka. Didn't want any other alcohol, just Vodka from sunrise to pass out.
I've wondered if Vodka isn't more addictive than other alcohol just because the worst alcoholics I've ever known were on Vodka. Didn't want any other alcohol, just Vodka from sunrise to pass out.
Supposedly, vodka lessens the hangover because there is nothing else in it. It's also a cheap liquor.
I know AA addresses this, but an alcoholic's behavior patterns may linger on for life. I've known men and women who have been regular AA members for many years who continued to act like irresponsible drunks.
I have also known some folks who were drunks, and sobered up through AA or by other means, and dropped their most destructive behaviors, even if they continued with others less destructive. [b]Those who do change always say that changing was harder than getting and staying sober.
The key lies in the Steps, which some work and some don't. I see many who just work the first 3 Steps and then survive on the fellowship by only going to meetings and not drinking. (Abstinence) I did this myself for 4 years and was so miserable that I went back out and drank. When I dragged myself back into AA I realized that true serenity is achieved by working all the Steps, especially the action Steps (4 thru 9). Members who continue to "act like irresponsible drunks" probably haven't done a 4th. Step (Personal Inventory). How can you change your behavior if you haven't identified what you are doing wrong ?
When you say that it's harder to change than staying sober, you are not entirely correct. If an alky does Steps 4 thru 10 as a regular or daily routine, life tends to become a lot easier and simpler than continuing to hold onto old character defects and waddling through life. By doing all the steps, my behavior was modified with little effort on my part and it amazes me how much progress I was able to make when I thought it was such a gargantuan task. Drunks instinctively seek the "easier softer path." What I learned is that the Steps are the easier softer path.
As far as ridding myself of all my old character defects, I still have a lot more work to do but I have an abiding willingness today that I did not possess years ago to be a better person. And along with that willingness is the wisdom to know that in practicing my new behavior I am free to "strive for progress rather than perfection !"
Thanks for filling me in on AA, Pawporri.
I learned a lot from your post. I've never attended an AA meeting, and really didn't know much about the 12 steps.
Your last sentence was very wise. I live much of my life by a similar thought- I call it advancing the ball. I might not get everything I want done, but as long as I advance the ball downfield, I'm closer to the goal than I was before.
Could I ask a question? I'm a big believer in karma- what goes out, good or bad, comes back around. Is there something like this in AA?
banjomike;28951075]Thanks for filling me in on AA, Pawporri.
I learned a lot from your post. I've never attended an AA meeting, and really didn't know much about the 12 steps.
Your last sentence was very wise. I live much of my life by a similar thought- I call it advancing the ball. I might not get everything I want done, but as long as I advance the ball downfield, I'm closer to the goal than I was before.
[b]Could I ask a question? I'm a big believer in karma- what goes out, good or bad, comes back around. Is there something like this in AA?
AA Preamble = "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution. It neither endorses or opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."
If karma is part of your belief system, that would be considered your business in AA. The only guiding principle for any AA member is to seek out a "Higher Power" of your own choosing, whatever that may be.
If you would like more info on the "Higher Power" aspect of the program, you might want to google the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" and read Chapter 4 entitled "We Agnostics" which provides an in depth discussion. IMHO you don't have to be an alky to appreciate the spiritual aspects of recovery.
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