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Men increasing their desirability through "success" is less an option than it used to be. Most women can take care of themselves these days, and so the # of women who would view a man as significantly more attractive for achieving ordinary levels of success is much less today than it was in the past. I view this as a good thing, by the way.
Times have changed in the past 50 years and that can be a good thing on balance, and still be less than a good thing for some men. The truth is that absent the social and economic need for most women to marry, some won't. They won't spend time in relationships that they hope will lead to marriage. In other words, the women who might have married these men 50 years ago won't date them today.
As a result, some men who have mainly qualities that make them good marriage prospects but not much else going for them may struggle through their 20s to find women interested in longer term relationships, and they may have no interest in or struggle to form other types of relationships. I don't see this as a major societal issue in and of itself, but it makes those men vulnerable and suggestable to "solutions". I suspect that this is a small number of men, and I also suspect that most eventually form long term relationships, just later than they would have 50 years ago.
The vulnerability plays out when we add a historically open sexual climate along with a media environment where sex is exaggerated and talked about constantly and where sexual winners and losers are clearly defined and discussed, winners being conventionally attractive women and the men who **** a variety of them and losers being everyone else. Women get inundated with the message that they're not hot enough and products to accomplish hotness, and men get deluged with the message that being a sexual loser is looming and the worst fate imaginable, and tricks and methods to avoid being a loser and win the prize (hot women). Of course people are responsible for the media they consume, but I think a person could be forgiven if those messages wear him or her down a bit.
Then those tricks and methods mostly fail the men who try them. Now those guys see themselves a genetic losers who also lost in their attempt to compensate for the poor hand fate dealt them.
All of this spices up a naturally fairly bland problem into a pretty rich stew of resentment in some men who have the "wrong" things going for them, as well as men who honestly have little going for them. That resentment doesn't justify so much as a cross word toward any real person, but it also doesn't just go away because it's unpleasant.
I think a lot of people in this thread are doing the right thing in response by talking against the narrow definitions of sexuality or the silly ways we define people. If a man doesn't believe that sex with a woman someone else told him is attractive is his only path to happiness, that's a start. Sadly, some men believe that.
Another current on this site is to advise men to adapt, which is key. That can mean different things, ranging from increasing his attractiveness or his interestingness (not a word, I know) to his adapting his expectations and the standards he sets for himself, as suggested in the above paragraph.
No changes occur or need to occur except in the minds and behavior of the men who are asking for some sort of change. As cliched as it sounds, they need to be their change.
Actually, I'd disagree with you on women being able to take care of themselves resulting in men not being able to increase their attractiveness through success. Most successful women want at least an equally successful man. Most men don't want women who are more successful than they are. I'd say male success becomes more important when women are successful. Success, unfortunately, detracts from our attractiveness. Too many men like to be needed instead of just wanted.
I will also agree that women have less financial need to marry but we're talking about relationships here not marriage. I can be in a relationship without being married. I can be in a long term relationship without being married.
If you (collective you) don't like the message mass media is selling, turn it off. You don't have to buy what they're selling. You have this thing between your ears called a brain. Use it. Form your own opinion. Too many people let others and the media think for them and that's a really unattractive trait.
I agree that the men asking for change need to be their own change. To the person who wants the change goes the effort of making the change happen. If women have no desire to change for them and they want the women, they need to do the changing just as women who want to be noticed by men who aren't need to do the changing. People need to put themselves in the other person's shoes and ask what's in it for them to change for me? No one is going to change for you unless they are motivated to do so. If you're the greatest thing since sliced bread and butter, you've got a shot. If you're not, you need to change yourself. The changing may be trying to make oneself more appealing or it may be to accept that you'll never be appealing to the type of person you want to be appealing to. Most of us do a combination of the two and end up settling for what we can get or not. That's just life. The 10's end up with 10's, the 9's with 9's and so on and so forth and some people just opt out of the game.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 06-17-2014 at 02:22 PM..
And this ONLY applies to men??? Sorry, women end up out of the dating game as well. Men don't have a corner on the market here. Many women are considered undateable by men and women have no real way to increase their attractiveness to the opposite sex as men can through success.
You're correct, they do. However, about twice as many men as women end up out of the dating game.
Why is that? Even though, as you said, women have no real way to increase their attractiveness (false)?
Actually, I'd disagree with you on women being able to take care of themselves resulting in men not being able to increase their attractiveness through success. Most successful women want at least an equally successful man. Most men don't want women who are more successful than they are. I'd say male success becomes more important when women are successful. Success, unfortunately, detracts from our attractiveness. Too many men like to be needed instead of just wanted.
I will also agree that women have less financial need to marry but we're talking about relationships here not marriage. I can be in a relationship without being married. I can be in a long term relationship without being married.
If you (collective you) don't like the message mass media is selling, turn it off. You don't have to buy what they're selling. You have this thing between your ears called a brain. Use it. Form your own opinion. Too many people let others and the media think for them and that's a really unattractive trait.
I agree that the men asking for change need to be their own change. To the person who wants the change goes the effort of making the change happen. If women have no desire to change for them and they want the women, they need to do the changing just as women who want to be noticed by men who aren't need to do the changing. People need to put themselves in the other person's shoes and ask what's in it for them to change for me? No one is going to change for you unless they are motivated to do so. If you're the greatest thing since sliced bread and butter, you've got a shot. If you're not, you need to change yourself. The changing may be trying to make oneself more appealing or it may be to accept that you'll never be appealing to the type of person you want to be appealing to. Most of us do a combination of the two and end up settling for what we can get or not. That's just life. The 10's end up with 10's, the 9's with 9's and so on and so forth and some people just opt out of the game.
The part you're failing to acknowledge is that social/cultural changes have happened that have given women an unfair advantage and broken down the unspoken "contract between the sexes."
You're correct, women have changed...into entitled brats. If it's my duty as a man to change so that I can be more suitable to an entitled brat.... Sorry, not taking that deal. This is why you are seeing the rise of the hookup culture, that according to studies, neither gender really cares for, and men who won't commit to marriage, LTR's...or even really dating. Why would they?
You're correct, they do. However, about twice as many men as women end up out of the dating game.
Why is that? Even though, as you said, women have no real way to increase their attractiveness (false)?
How does a woman increase her attractiveness? Plastic surgery? What can a woman do that a man can't to increase attractiveness? Men can add success to the list of things they can to do increase attractiveness but women cannot. Men can also add aging because men become distinguished as they age whereas women just become old and spent.
Please explain the math of twice as many men ending up out of the dating game as women (who are the women dating if they aren't dating the men?) and back it up with data from a reputable source. I don't believe this statement. Why? Because when you look at dating site memberships there aren't twice as many men on the sites as women. Depending on age, there may be more/less men/women but I've never seen a site that had twice as many men looking for dates as women. Now I've heard of demographics (like Alaska) where there is a serious imbalance but in general, I don't see one.
Please support your claim.
I know this is on marriage not dating but I'd expect the proportions to be similar. This shows more single women than men.
"53% Percentage of unmarried U.S. residents 18 and older who were women in 2011; 47 percent were men.
Source: America's Families and Living Arrangements: 2011"
" 89 Number of unmarried men 18 and older for every 100 unmarried women in the United States in 2011. Source: America's Families and Living Arrangements: 2011"
I know personal experience doesn't count for much but I happen to know three women who would love to be in relationships but can't find one (two over 40 (never married) and one over 50 (divorced)) and one man. I'd love to fix him up with one of those women but he won't let me. I do know other men and women who are unmarried and older but I can't speak as to why. Of those I know who want a relationship but never have been able to find one 2/3 are women.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 06-17-2014 at 02:48 PM..
How does a woman increase her attractiveness? Plastic surgery? What can a woman do that a man can't to increase attractiveness? Men can add success to the list of things they can to do increase attractiveness but women cannot. Men can also add aging because men become distinguished as they age whereas women just become old and spent.
Please explain the math of twice as many men ending up out of the dating game as women and back it up with data from a reputable source. I don't believe this statement. Why? Because when you look at dating site memberships there aren't twice as many men on the sites as women. Depending on age, there may be more/less men/women but I've never seen a site that had twice as many men looking for dates as women. Now I've heard of demographics (like Alaska) where there is a serious imbalance but in general, I don't see one.
Please support your claim.
I know this is on marriage not dating but I'd expect the proportions to be similar. This shows more single women than men.
"53% Percentage of unmarried U.S. residents 18 and older who were women in 2011; 47 percent were men.
Source: America's Families and Living Arrangements: 2011"
" 89 Number of unmarried men 18 and older for every 100 unmarried women in the United States in 2011. Source: America's Families and Living Arrangements: 2011"
Any person, male or female, can increase there attractiveness. To suggest otherwise is absurd. But it sounds like you've pretty well convinced yourself that you can't.
The first bolded is correct, there aren't twice as many men on a dating site as women. Most dating sites have 4 to 10 times as many men as there are women!!!
A very large DNA study showed that approximately 80% of all the women who've ever lived have managed to reproduce, while only 40% of males have successfully reproduced. Look it up. It was done by studying mitochondrial DNA, which is a special kind of DNA that is passed only from mothers to offspring, thereby allowing researchers to track mitochondrial DNA markers through many generations.
I'm feeling lazy right now, you can look it up yourself.
The part you're failing to acknowledge is that social/cultural changes have happened that have given women an unfair advantage and broken down the unspoken "contract between the sexes."
You're correct, women have changed...into entitled brats. If it's my duty as a man to change so that I can be more suitable to an entitled brat.... Sorry, not taking that deal. This is why you are seeing the rise of the hookup culture, that according to studies, neither gender really cares for, and men who won't commit to marriage, LTR's...or even really dating. Why would they?
Even if many or most women are entitled brats, maybe that's working for them. If so, they have no incentive to change. It's the person who wants a different outcome who needs to change, or live the same old outcomes.
Any person, male or female, can increase there attractiveness. To suggest otherwise is absurd. But it sounds like you've pretty well convinced yourself that you can't.
The first bolded is correct, there aren't twice as many men on a dating site as women. Most dating sites have 4 to 10 times as many men as there are women!!!
A very large DNA study showed that approximately 80% of all the women who've ever lived have managed to reproduce, while only 40% of males have successfully reproduced. Look it up. It was done by studying mitochondrial DNA, which is a special kind of DNA that is passed only from mothers to offspring, thereby allowing researchers to track mitochondrial DNA markers through many generations.
I'm feeling lazy right now, you can look it up yourself.
But men have more options here than women for increasing attractiveness. Women have looks and youth and there's not much you can do there for either. I can't make myself prettier without surgery and I can't make myself younger. Men can make themselves more successful and better educated. Both things that make them more attractive.
Please post your links to sites with 4 to 10 times as many men as women. The sites I've looked at had more/less men/women dependent on age but nowhere near twice as many of either at any age. And again I ask just who are the women who are dating but not dating the guys who can't get a date dating? Each other? According to this article, the top ten sites average 50/50.
"There Aren’t Any Men Out There
Some dating sites are more appealing to men than others. But when you average the top 10 dating sites, the male-female ratio is close to 50-50. (Of course, if 30% of those men are in fact married, that changes things)."
Let's go with the data I posted. 47% of men are single while 53% of women are single. If we assume that all 47% of these men are not dating (a bad assumption) then in order to have twice as many dateless men than women 29.5% of women have to be dating someone other than these men. I guess they must be dating the married men. Do you really believe the crap you post? Seriously, take a math class.
Um, a DNA study cannot determine if 80% of all women who ever lived reproduced without taking samples from EVERY WOMAN WHO EVER LIVED. I'm pretty sure that has not been done. The only way to show a woman did not reproduce would be to take her DNA and compare it to everyone else's DNA in the world including people who are dead because she could have had offspring that did not survive (common in the past). Add a science class to that math class. Yes, mitochondrial DNA is passed from mother to child but that will not show who did not reproduce. I have the same mitochondrial DNA as my mother, grandmother, great grand mother and so on. The daughters of my sisters also share my mitochondrial DNA because we got it from the same maternal lineage. You cannot use their mitochondrial DNA to prove whether I reproduced or not. Heck you can't even use mine to show my mother reproduced as her sisters have it too.
I won't be looking it up because it's garbage science and I know it. There is only one way to prove someone did not reproduce and that is to take their DNA and cross check it against everyone else's DNA and get a no match. I am absolutely certain we have not taken DNA samples from every man and woman who ever lived so I'm absolutely certain this has not been done.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 06-17-2014 at 03:09 PM..
Actually, I'd disagree with you on women being able to take care of themselves resulting in men not being able to increase their attractiveness through success. Most successful women want at least an equally successful man. Most men don't want women who are more successful than they are. I'd say male success becomes more important when women are successful. Success, unfortunately, detracts from our attractiveness. Too many men like to be needed instead of just wanted.
I will also agree that women have less financial need to marry but we're talking about relationships here not marriage. I can be in a relationship without being married. I can be in a long term relationship without being married.
If you (collective you) don't like the message mass media is selling, turn it off. You don't have to buy what they're selling. You have this thing between your ears called a brain. Use it. Form your own opinion. Too many people let others and the media think for them and that's a really unattractive trait.
I agree that the men asking for change need to be their own change. To the person who wants the change goes the effort of making the change happen. If women have no desire to change for them and they want the women, they need to do the changing just as women who want to be noticed by men who aren't need to do the changing. People need to put themselves in the other person's shoes and ask what's in it for them to change for me? No one is going to change for you unless they are motivated to do so. If you're the greatest thing since sliced bread and butter, you've got a shot. If you're not, you need to change yourself. The changing may be trying to make oneself more appealing or it may be to accept that you'll never be appealing to the type of person you want to be appealing to. Most of us do a combination of the two and end up settling for what we can get or not. That's just life. The 10's end up with 10's, the 9's with 9's and so on and so forth and some people just opt out of the game.
My point isn't that a man's finances don't matter to some women, but that they matter less to many, and very little to the growing number of women who aren't looking to get married, at least not until later in life. So guys who frankly could use a little boost from a decent income in their 20s appeal to fewer women than they did a couple of generations ago. Those guys may keep their cool and get into a good relationship, but perhaps later than in times past. And as I said, some people, men or women, being told that "their day will come" end up bitter and angry before that day arrives.
How does a woman increase her attractiveness? Plastic surgery? What can a woman do that a man can't to increase attractiveness?
The following are tools that women have in their arsenal, that men don't have.
For complexion flaws:
* Tanning salons to even out skin tone (Obviously guys can tan, but it goes against what is socially acceptable)
* Makeup
For hair flaws:
* Coloring
* Straightening/curling
* Wigs
* (Not to mention the fact that women don't have to deal with pattern baldness that affects their attractiveness significantly, like some men do in their 20s or earlier)
For body morphology flaws:
* High heels to look taller
* Pushup bras
* Breast implants
Please post your links to site with 4 to 10 times as many men as women. The sites I've looked at had more/less men/women dependent on age but nowhere near twice as many of either at any age. And again I ask just who are the women who are dating but not dating the guys who can't get a date dating? Each other?
Let's go with the data I posted. 47% of men are single while 53% of women are single. If we assume that all 47% of these men are not dating (a bad assumption) then in order to have twice as many dateless men than women 29.5% of women have to be dating someone other than these men. I guess they must be dating the married men. Do you really believe the crap you post? Seriously, take a math class.
Um, a DNA study cannot determine if 80% of all women who ever lived reproduced without taking samples from EVERY WOMAN WHO EVER LIVED. I'm pretty sure that has not been done. The only way to show a woman did not reproduce would be to take her DNA and compare it to everyone else's DNA in the world. Add a science class to that math class.
I won't be looking it up because it's garbage science and I know it. There is only one way to prove someone did not reproduce and that is to take their DNA and cross check it against everyone else's DNA and get a no match. I am absolutely certain we have not taken DNA samples from every man and woman who ever lived so I'm absolutely certain this has not been done.
Regarding dating, keep the numbers simple. If you look at 5 women and 5 men, it's entirely possible that one man dates 2 women at the same time or over time. Something like this;
Man 1 dates woman 1
Man 1 dates woman 2
Man 2 dates women 3
Man 3 dates woman 4
Man 4 and man 5 don't date. Woman 5 doesn't date.
I'm not saying this is the rule, jut that it could play out that way.
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Do you really believe the crap you post? Seriously, take a math class.
