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Elliot Rodger started seeking wealth once he became convinced that girls wouldn't be attracted to him any other way. It is true that men with money attract more women than men without money, if everything else is equal, because there are many women out there who are "gold diggers". Some men don't want a gold digger... others, like Hugh Hefner, are perfectly content to be surrounded by gold diggers if that means they get to be surrounded by beautiful women.
In any other scenario, I would say you're right - no need to seek after being supremely wealthy, except for how our present system glorifies wealth. Money equals power in our present system. If you have money, you can buy influence, you can buy favorable court rulings, you can buy favorable laws. That must all be changed.
Yes, but not everyone thinks that the current system is good. How about finding people who agree that the current system isn't good?
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Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy
Because the opposite is failure, and that sucks. However, success is relative and we adults must stop defining success as "achieving huge amounts of money and fame".
Again, I agree. But that's not how the system is set up. We tell our children to do exactly what you say, and then we work 80 hours per week just to be able to live in a fancy house in a fancy neighborhood and drive a fancy car. We tell our children to do exactly what you say, and then we buy expensive tickets to sporting events and go there wearing expensive apparel with sports team logos on it. We tell our children to seek contentment, peace and joy, and then with our wallets we support people who do the exact opposite. We pay money for tickets to concerts put on by drug-addicted criminals like Justin Bieber and Lil' Wayne. We pay money for tickets to movies starring people who have multiple mugshots and drive around in Lamborghinis despite how they don't give any money to the hungry and homeless. We pay huge sums of money to own shiny new things. And, you see, our money equals our life. The vast majority of us trade time out of our lives, which we will never get back, for money. Thus, when we spend our money on something, we are essentially spending our lives on that same something. For our children, it becomes "do as I say, not as I do" and we all know how much of a colossal failure that philosophy always proves itself to be.
Agreed once again. However, we must also temper that by celebrating each child's success equally. If we're going to teach failure equally, we must reward success equally. If we're going to teach that failing a test means you must study harder next time, we should sound the trumpets and beat the drums when that kid aces the next test. After all, that's what happens to athletes when their team wins after they learn a lesson about failure from the time they lost the game.
You're right. The system here is not good because of the savage emphasis on material and superficial things to the exclusion of all that is really important. Even institutions that ought to have depth, such as religion, are tainted by materialism. Marshall McLuhan predicted that the medium (the messages on TV, movies, and now computers) controlled and would control the action of human beings exposed to the medium. We are all swayed by the messages subconsciously whether we like it or not. Some more than others. McLuhan was correct. But isn't the worst thing to do in a sinking ship, to hold your nose and jump in to drown yourself? Perhaps it's better to try to save yourself by finding a lifeboat or something to serve as a lifeboat. Granted, it isn't easy! But isn't it good that the first step is already done? you know you aren't the only one who thinks this way. That's pretty great. Find people who think like you.
By the way, are you real Romani, or it's only your user name?
Or else, be prepared to see more and more of these massacres as the years roll on. And start thinking about what you're going to do if, instead of it happening to "someone else" as it always seems to, it happens to someone you love.
I won't dispute this extremely extremely long post, however; I will make this point. Myself and a good friend of mine were also both introverts and extremely shy late bloomers. The difference between both of us and Elliot was that we both proactively did something to change the situation vs. Elliot.
Sure Elliot 'claims' a lot of women reject him, but how much did he really put himself out there ? He talked to a girl he liked once and she said no and it was traumatic for him. I saw an interview with a UCLA psychologist that also mentioned that he had outward angst and anger due to rejection from not only women, but even 'popular' men. The irony is that the way he handled his own situation was actually more introverted, hence a conflict in what he wanted vs. what he was actually doing. I have not read his manifesto yet, however; I did not see anything in reports that he was even socially active in college. He says a lot he was 'rejected' yet he does not go into enough description how this occured. Merely, it 'occured'.
I did watch several of his youtube videos and there is only one message I got from all of them: "self-pity". I didnt see anything else about what he was actively doing to change his situation, or any detail on it. He didn't say he joined new clubs, started online dating, joined a gym and participated in group events, etc... It was merely self-pity. It reminds me of someone who is unemployed who just feels sorry for themselves. There's nothing wrong with being unemployed, but when you combined it with self-pity, it becomes a vicious cycle mentally. Since you are doing this in your head vs. talking to someone there is no counter-feedback.
I hate to speak ill of someone who is dead and whom I have no personal feedback with but given his extreme dependency on attractive females, and the way he describes the need for sex and validation, makes me believe the divorce of his parents made him estranged from his mother. It appears that the female validation he only refers to and the resentment of other men who get this validation may have stemmed from a absent relationship with his mother early on. From a logical standpoint, there is really no reason why he could not have had sex if he wanted to. He is not fat, or unattractive, plus he has a BMW. I know several men who have had sex with women with significantly less to work with. One was a dumpy short 5'1" guy with bad teeth. Granted the woman he got with wasn't anything too special, but if it were merely the sex Elliot was after, it would have been obtained nonetheless.
Just like the flawed version of courtship for men/women, there shouldn't be world hunger either.....
I hate to say this, but the way the world 'should' be and the way the world 'really is' are 2 different things. There's really only 2 options at the end of the day:
That is where I am now. I've found solace in books, music, movies, writing, friends, and computers and video games. I also love animals, and dote on them.
I have given up the chances of having biological kids, because I doubt anybody would want to be with me. That is okay. I'd rather spend money on myself, and people that are in my life, than regretting rejections that will only hurt me.
Thank you for proving my point. She is dreaming about a certain kind of man who has certain personality traits and DOESN'T CARE about the looks. But if two men had the exact same mind, one being six two with muscles and the other five three and scrawny, which one would she choose?
There are men who find large women hot and prefer large women. There are men who like older women hot and prefer older women. But nowhere are there women who prefer shorter, scrawnier and/or awkward men. That is the point I've been making.
And even if a man does use charm, money etc to get a woman, he understand, deep down, that ultimate he still isn't hot for her because women's taste is a lot more narrow then a man's taste. Why is that so hard to understand?
Lol. It's not hard to understand that YOU believe it to be true. And I disagree because I am a woman who has lived for more than half a century in the knowledge that I am in the "taste" range of very few men. I've sat all my life watching male eyes pass over me as if I am invisible.
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 06-25-2014 at 09:24 AM..
That is where I am now. I've found solace in books, music, movies, writing, friends, and computers and video games. I also love animals, and dote on them.
I have given up the chances of having biological kids, because I doubt anybody would want to be with me. That is okay. I'd rather spend money on myself, and people that are in my life, than regretting rejections that will only hurt me.
It really doesn't sound like a bad life at all, actually. Sounds like a full life.
Yes, but not everyone thinks that the current system is good. How about finding people who agree that the current system isn't good?
We need more of those people. A good bunch of truly motivated people could change the system.
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Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua
By the way, are you real Romani, or it's only your user name?
25% real. Had two great-grandparents who were 100%, born in a caravan.
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Originally Posted by MaxLMG
I won't dispute this extremely extremely long post, however; I will make this point. Myself and a good friend of mine were also both introverts and extremely shy late bloomers. The difference between both of us and Elliot was that we both proactively did something to change the situation vs. Elliot.
I think Elliot did things to change the situation. He may not have done the RIGHT things, but he was intelligent enough to observe his reality and from that determine what he could do to change it. I actually think he was pretty much right-on about his strengths and weaknesses, and he tried to do things that were irrelevant to both. For example, the clothes he wore and his hairstyle. He figured that if he were fashionable, that might give him a boost. Everything he tried to give himself a boost didn't work. Again, I know the feeling. When I was in 5th grade, I got this serious crush on a girl who was new to our town. She took a quick liking to me too and we were pretty tight for a while. However, it didn't take long for her to recognize the pecking order of our society and realize that she would personally benefit more from pursuing the jocks. That being said, I still tried to impress her. We started with something, that's enough to build upon, right? Not so much. Gave her a bag of cookies for Valentine's Day - nothing. Played piano in front of the whole school - nothing. Didn't matter. I couldn't throw a ball through a hoop with finesse. I was screwed.
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Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua
Sure Elliot 'claims' a lot of women reject him, but how much did he really put himself out there ? He talked to a girl he liked once and she said no and it was traumatic for him.
I like most of what you say but it seems to me that you don't understand what it's like to be in Elliot's shoes. I do. I was there for years. Allow me to explain.
His experiences with Maddy, as a child, weren't of much substance because young children don't generally think about dating. I was one of the "earliest bloomers" in that realm, among my peers, and I was 10 at the time. Most of them wanted to start dating around age 12. When you notice the hierarchy forming in 4th grade, as both I and Elliot did, you develop fears. By the end of 4th grade, I was being picked on a lot. I knew where I stood in the pecking order. So, in 5th grade when that new girl came in, I didn't jump at the chance. She was actually the girl who made me think about dating. It didn't happen right away. I was already the lowest of the low by the time I started considering her. That sort of thing will make you worry about what'll happen if you take a risk and ask for a date. For the same reason that few people of either gender wanted to be my FRIEND, I imagined that girls would refrain similarly from being my GIRLFRIEND. And it turned out that my intuition was right. This same girl, later on, dated a guy I thoroughly hated... a dude with one of the blackest personalities out there... but... he was a jock!
So Elliot was already afraid of putting himself out there, due to what started happening to him around 4th grade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua
I did watch several of his youtube videos and there is only one message I got from all of them: "self-pity". I didnt see anything else about what he was actively doing to change his situation, or any detail on it. He didn't say he joined new clubs, started online dating, joined a gym and participated in group events, etc... It was merely self-pity. It reminds me of someone who is unemployed who just feels sorry for themselves. There's nothing wrong with being unemployed, but when you combined it with self-pity, it becomes a vicious cycle mentally. Since you are doing this in your head vs. talking to someone there is no counter-feedback.
By the time he started making videos, he had already done all of that stuff to an extent he felt was sufficient (or would have been more than sufficient had he been a jock), so you don't get to see what he felt like as a younger person. Again, having been there, I'm positive that he is telling the truth when he stated that he didn't always feel that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua
I hate to say this, but the way the world 'should' be and the way the world 'really is' are 2 different things. There's really only 2 options at the end of the day:
1. You adapt
2. You don't adapt
If the choices are adapt to a society you hate, or doing your own thing, you're going to do your own thing.
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Originally Posted by soundofsilence82
There is a third option.
3. You give up
That is where I am now. I've found solace in books, music, movies, writing, friends, and computers and video games. I also love animals, and dote on them.
I have given up the chances of having biological kids, because I doubt anybody would want to be with me. That is okay. I'd rather spend money on myself, and people that are in my life, than regretting rejections that will only hurt me.
My wife said the same before I met her. Exactly why do you think you're doomed to a life of solitude?
I think Elliot did things to change the situation. He may not have done the RIGHT things, but he was intelligent enough to observe his reality and from that determine what he could do to change it. I actually think he was pretty much right-on about his strengths and weaknesses, and he tried to do things that were irrelevant to both. For example, the clothes he wore and his hairstyle. He figured that if he were fashionable, that might give him a boost. Everything he tried to give himself a boost didn't work.?
See, I not only think he did things incorrectly, but I think he was a self-serving, self-absorbed narcissist and psychopath, shallow beyond all measure, filled with rage, dwelling in hatred, who did absolutely nothing good for the world but cause harm, and who decided becoming a murderer was simply dandy as hell. He didn't care for males (killed them), he didn't care for females (raged against them and killed them), didn't care for his mother (had nothing but ugly words about her for not being wealthy), and felt the world owed him everything. That's not the mark of a person to be admired, even by a long stretch of the imagination. People like that do need to be gone.
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Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy
Again, I know the feeling. When I was in 5th grade, I got this serious crush on a girl who was new to our town. She took a quick liking to me too and we were pretty tight for a while. However, it didn't take long for her to recognize the pecking order of our society and realize that she would personally benefit more from pursuing the jocks. That being said, I still tried to impress her. We started with something, that's enough to build upon, right? Not so much. Gave her a bag of cookies for Valentine's Day - nothing. Played piano in front of the whole school - nothing. Didn't matter. I couldn't throw a ball through a hoop with finesse. I was screwed.
Almost everyone is a failure at something or another, but that gives no one the right to become an ah, blame the world for one's failures, and then go out killing. Anyone who feels so entitled that he thinks the person he sets his eyes on OWES HIM to become his girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever, needs a reality check. What, is he some sort of royalty?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy
I like most of what you say but it seems to me that you don't understand what it's like to be in Elliot's shoes. I do. I was there for years. Allow me to explain.
Sorry, I don't understand what it's like to be in the shoes of someone who is a complete narcissists and wants all things his way, wealth, the female he wants, etc., or he'll rush out and shoot people. I personally knew as friends two dear, dear people who were in concentration camps in Nazi Germany, where they were skeletal, nearly starved to death, beaten, tortured, bizarre experimental surgery performed on them as if they were lower level animals, and they managed to escape half-alive. They went on to work really, really hard and make a life for themselves, and accept whatever life gave, and give up on what life didn't give them. When I think of them, I cry at the resilience and beauty of the human spirit to overcome evil. This dude did not have to suffer things of that nature. He was simply a narcissist who felt life owed him everything without going out to work for it. So sorry, no, I don't understand that entitlement mentality.
Lol. It's not hard to understand that YOU believe it to be true. And I disagree because I am a woman who has lived for more than half a century in the knowledge that I am in the "taste" range of very few men. I've sat all my life watching male eyes pass over me as if I am invisible.
Where is the evidence? Personal anecdotes mean nothing.
Again, look at porn for men: It depicts what they find sexually appealing. There is large woman porn, older woman porn, etc.
Now, look at porn for women (erotica/romance stories) can you show me ONE example of the object of the woman's desire being shorter, scrawnier, etc? Just ONE example.
It is a well known fact that there are "chubby chasers" and "MILF hunters,"...where are the "short chasers" amongst women? Any EVIDENCE of the contrary?
EDIT: And before you yell about "that's just porn!" Yes, it is, and porn is all about sex and what is sexually attractive. If there weren't men out there who found larger, older, or any other kind of woman sexually appealing such porn wouldn't exist. Written Erotic for women, because women usually go for the printed word over images or videos, should therefore have at least SOME titles about shorter, scrawnier etc men if women who were into such a thing existed...but there isn't any.
And yes, I'm talking about being sexually attractive. Plenty of men go through life knowing they aren't sexually attractive to any woman, and that sucks.
Last edited by victorianpunk; 06-25-2014 at 01:03 PM..
I not only think he did things incorrectly, but I think he was a self-serving, self-absorbed narcissist and psychopath, shallow beyond all measure, filled with rage, dwelling in hatred, who did absolutely nothing good for the world but cause harm... He didn't care for males (killed them), he didn't care for females (raged against them and killed them), didn't care for his mother (had nothing but ugly words about her for not being wealthy), and felt the world owed him everything.
I think you're right; the evidence points toward him being a psychopath. His rage and antisocial tendencies were building to the point at which he could no longer tolerate them; he then came up with his Day of Retribution. You wonder if there was something that could have been done several years before his rage became so out of control in order to change the outcome.
He either fooled those therapists we've been told that he saw, or he never saw them and lied to his parents about that as well. It's beyond tragic that no one saw any of these signs.
I think you're right; the evidence points toward him being a psychopath. His rage and antisocial tendencies were building to the point at which he could no longer tolerate them; he then came up with his Day of Retribution. You wonder if there was something that could have been done several years before his rage became so out of control in order to change the outcome.
He either fooled those therapists we've been told that he saw, or he never saw them and lied to his parents about that as well. It's beyond tragic that no one saw any of these signs.
Yes... Psychopaths are very good at lying and pretending to get the result they are seeking, or to set up situations they seek to set up. They are deserving of the Ordinary People's Academy Award. Big liars and pretenders they are.
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