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Maybe part of the problem is that these people who believe the anti-vax disinformation have no idea how easy it is for any random person to completely fabricate very convincing stories on the internet without ever getting called out or punished for it? Or they think that if it's on Facebook or a website, and other people like it and share it and they seem to share a lot of their other opinions and biases, it must be true?
And on top of that, they've been so turned against "the mainstream media" that they automatically doubt any information that comes from it.
And then the dupes come to forums like this and try to get the rest of us to see the light, but they know we don't take them seriously. At the same time, they often don't seem have enough faith in their information sources to share them with us.
I honestly don't know that they care.
I think to a lot of people (in this case anti-vaxxers) the truth and facts aren't really the goal. It's never been about that. It's been more about pwning the libs, or cosplaying as He-Man and She-ra or the feeling that comes from thinking you're onto something; almost like an "Internet Man Hunt" where you think you're part of some digital sleuth group who has cracked the code. (Like that doc about the people who were trying to find the guy who killed the cat on a Facebook livestream)
I mean fake personas making up chit on Facebook isn't new. The two biggest "Patriot" groups on Facebook in 2016 were a couple of a fat teens in a basement apartment in Minsk.
I'm not sure about you, but nothing screams good old red blooded American patriot like a couple of kids from the Eastern Bloc.
I think to a lot of people (in this case anti-vaxxers) the truth and facts aren't really the goal. It's never been about that. It's been more about pwning the libs, or cosplaying as He-Man and She-ra or the feeling that comes from thinking you're onto something; almost like an "Internet Man Hunt" where you think you're part of some digital sleuth group who has cracked the code. (Like that doc about the people who were trying to find the guy who killed the cat on a Facebook livestream)
You hit on a lot of good points there and I think it summarizes what is going through these peoples heads. To expand on it, I'll just add that for a lot of these people they generally truthfully in their heads think that they are right. They think they are "the expert" on the topic and nothing you say will divert them from that idea.
By questioning them on their alternative facts a person is essentially trying to completely demolish their fabricated world view. They can't have that as it would shatter their reason for being. It's why it is so hard to get through to these people. They are so entrenched in being right, wanting to hold that close, and even more so righteously/selfishly/egotistically these people like lauding it over others. People for a majority of their lives have never been "right" about a majority of things, but now they have "this" so relinquishing that is not easy.
TLDR ~ You are better off trying to talk physics with a brick wall.
You hit on a lot of good points there and I think it summarizes what is going through these peoples heads. To expand on it, I'll just add that for a lot of these people they generally truthfully in their heads think that they are right. They think they are "the expert" on the topic and nothing you say will divert them from that idea.
By questioning them on their alternative facts a person is essentially trying to completely demolish their fabricated world view. They can't have that as it would shatter their reason for being. It's why it is so hard to get through to these people. They are so entrenched in being right, wanting to hold that close, and even more so righteously/selfishly/egotistically these people like lauding it over others. People for a majority of their lives have never been "right" about a majority of things, but now they have "this" so relinquishing that is not easy.
TLDR ~ You are better off trying to talk physics with a brick wall.
Excellent points D. May I add to the list a subset of anti vaxers that I've come across?
I kinda think for some of the anti vaxers we may be over thinking it. Some of them come across to me as people who "believe their own press". What I mean by that is they've been told one too many times by Mommy and Daddy that they are very special little boys and girls. Some of them truly seem taken aback that they are expected to put a vaccine in their bodies for "the public good'. They are just too precious and can't wrap their heads around the fact that the vaccinated folks just don't get it.
You hit on a lot of good points there and I think it summarizes what is going through these peoples heads. To expand on it, I'll just add that for a lot of these people they generally truthfully in their heads think that they are right. They think they are "the expert" on the topic and nothing you say will divert them from that idea.
By questioning them on their alternative facts a person is essentially trying to completely demolish their fabricated world view. They can't have that as it would shatter their reason for being. It's why it is so hard to get through to these people. They are so entrenched in being right, wanting to hold that close, and even more so righteously/selfishly/egotistically these people like lauding it over others. People for a majority of their lives have never been "right" about a majority of things, but now they have "this" so relinquishing that is not easy.
TLDR ~ You are better off trying to talk physics with a brick wall.
Spot on. I've listened to a (unnecessarily) long interview back in 2019 about the whole fake news and misinformation thing, and this psychologist made the same points. He was like these people get empowered because all of this feels like a community or movement to them. They feel like they are part of something bigger. It has a built in "us vs them", but more importantly it has that "we are the underdogs and they are trying to shut us up because we are right" aspect to it.
It's like my rescue dog that barks at every person who walks by our house. In his mind, his barking is working because people go away. They disappear after he barks loud enough. So are these people. The more people say this is fake news, this is not correct, these people feel like everyone is against them. The whole world is against them, and social media is shutting them up, and governments are making them get vaccinated. So in their mind, they are right and the whole world isn't.
You hit on a lot of good points there and I think it summarizes what is going through these peoples heads. To expand on it, I'll just add that for a lot of these people they generally truthfully in their heads think that they are right. They think they are "the expert" on the topic and nothing you say will divert them from that idea.
By questioning them on their alternative facts a person is essentially trying to completely demolish their fabricated world view. They can't have that as it would shatter their reason for being. It's why it is so hard to get through to these people. They are so entrenched in being right, wanting to hold that close, and even more so righteously/selfishly/egotistically these people like lauding it over others. People for a majority of their lives have never been "right" about a majority of things, but now they have "this" so relinquishing that is not easy.
TLDR ~ You are better off trying to talk physics with a brick wall.
Yup. As I mentioned repeatedly and as recently as a dozen or so pages back, we are the United States of Dunning-Kruger. People who haven't read more than the cover of a book on [enter your subject of choice] have fully bought into the idea that they have more expertise on said subject than someone who has spent their entire life studying it.
The video I shared last page hits it right on the head. Joe Q Truckdriver and Jane A Homemaker almost certainly don't know as much about infectious disease than a doctor or scientist. Yet these people roll into a an appointment and have literally zero shame in saying "Ya I'll take my opinion over yours Doc". Friggin lunacy. And for what? Some idea that "all opinions are equal"? Talk about snowflakes.
No Mr. Truckdriver, your opinion on how viruses work isn't equal to someone who actually works with viruses. When we need to understand how to maintain a Diesel engine or what the towing rating of a Mack truck is....we'll call ya. Otherwise, kindly **** and the let the adults talk. It's akin to me telling my wife what going through unmedicated, natural childbirth is like. I know nothing about the experience....yet know enough to shut my suck hole.
The video I shared last page hits it right on the head. Joe Q Truckdriver and Jane A Homemaker almost certainly don't know as much about infectious disease than a doctor or scientist. Yet these people roll into a an appointment and have literally zero shame in saying "Ya I'll take my opinion over yours Doc". Friggin lunacy. And for what? Some idea that "all opinions are equal"? Talk about snowflakes.
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Yup. And then they cite some charlatan physician and then they dig in even more.
Yup. As I mentioned repeatedly and as recently as a dozen or so pages back, we are the United States of Dunning-Kruger. People who haven't read more than the cover of a book on [enter your subject of choice] have fully bought into the idea that they have more expertise on said subject than someone who has spent their entire life studying it.
The video I shared last page hits it right on the head. Joe Q Truckdriver and Jane A Homemaker almost certainly don't know as much about infectious disease than a doctor or scientist. Yet these people roll into a an appointment and have literally zero shame in saying "Ya I'll take my opinion over yours Doc". Friggin lunacy. And for what? Some idea that "all opinions are equal"? Talk about snowflakes.
No Mr. Truckdriver, your opinion on how viruses work isn't equal to someone who actually works with viruses. When we need to understand how to maintain a Diesel engine or what the towing rating of a Mack truck is....we'll call ya. Otherwise, kindly **** and the let the adults talk. It's akin to me telling my wife what going through unmedicated, natural childbirth is like. I know nothing about the experience....yet know enough to shut my suck hole.
Yep! I think I've said it in this thread long time ago: when the whole society is built on anti-intellectualism where Lisa Simpson is a bore and Bart Simpson can't do wrong, you are bound to have Mr Truckdrivers who think they understand the virus better than those who've spent most of their lives studying it.
I can only speculate to what the reason is based upon the people that I know that are perpetuating all these recent conspiracy theories and falsehoods.
They have less education than others, never had a "real" career, don't feel like they have a purpose in life and are very very lonely. These people are hungry for a social circle and this is a way for them to fit in and feel like they belong to something. I think many were brought up in a far right family (or environment) so they are already aligned with that party so they will tend to follow what the majority of their party's thoughts and beliefs are.
I also believe people on the far left do this. We saw it with the far left extremists that burned, looted and tore down monuments.
And then you have the people that are educated and are so driven by money, power and control that they will do ANYTHING to get the sheep to follow them. They KNOW what they are spreading is false but they do it to gain and keep control so they can continue to line their pockets and keep their ego inflated.
Having these two political parties that are always at war with each other and also being so dependent upon social media makes it easier for people to pick a side and just follow what the people on loud speakers are saying.
That is why I changed my party affiliation, reduced my internet time and walked away from many "friendships". I just can't be around people that don't believe that you can think for yourself. I am so much happier now!
Yep! I think I've said it in this thread long time ago: when the whole society is built on anti-intellectualism where Lisa Simpson is a bore and Bart Simpson can't do wrong, you are bound to have Mr Truckdrivers who think they understand the virus better than those who've spent most of their lives studying it.
Came across this thread on twitter last night. It's times like this were in my twenties I would have said "I'm rooting for the plague to cull the stupidity".
Now that we've lived through the plague, I can say I am now rooting for the asteroid or comet. The stupid, it burns. Leave no trace space rock!
And before anyone comes in with the "private property owner, they can make their own rules"....that isn't the point. "New Science"? What's that you say? You discovered "new science" that literally no scientist on the planet has found?"
I can only speculate to what the reason is based upon the people that I know that are perpetuating all these recent conspiracy theories and falsehoods.
They have less education than others, never had a "real" career, don't feel like they have a purpose in life and are very very lonely. These people are hungry for a social circle and this is a way for them to fit in and feel like they belong to something. I think many were brought up in a far right family (or environment) so they are already aligned with that party so they will tend to follow what the majority of their party's thoughts and beliefs are.
I also believe people on the far left do this. We saw it with the far left extremists that burned, looted and tore down monuments.
And then you have the people that are educated and are so driven by money, power and control that they will do ANYTHING to get the sheep to follow them. They KNOW what they are spreading is false but they do it to gain and keep control so they can continue to line their pockets and keep their ego inflated.
Having these two political parties that are always at war with each other and also being so dependent upon social media makes it easier for people to pick a side and just follow what the people on loud speakers are saying.
That is why I changed my party affiliation, reduced my internet time and walked away from many "friendships". I just can't be around people that don't believe that you can think for yourself. I am so much happier now!
Lots of truth here (and it definitely cuts across the political spectrum). There is a former Republican Rep from RI named Tom Nichols who has talked about the underlying issue with much of modern America is the combination of wealth and the underlying phenomena that people can't accept that life, most of the time, is meant to be "boring".
People get attached to dopamine/serotonin hits from social media and seek it out because it gives them something their analog doesn't have (for whatever reason).
Life is better when you can fill an analog, and naturally occurring lull with a digital, exciting, my life has purpose, thing.
I mean, what is more exciting?
"There is a highly contagious new respiratory virus floating around. I should get the jab that experts in the field have developed, to ensure I don't get it and have it decimate my body"
OR
"There is a highly contagious new respiratory virus floating around. I have found a connection that all of the experts in the field have missed and as such, I won't be getting the jab"
The former is boring. That latter is right out of Tom Clancy novel.
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