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I'm pretty confident it's the overly sexual nature, not the fact that it's about LGBTQ people, are the reasons people want the book(s) pulled. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find something that explicit anywhere else in the library, and I think if you could, people would be upset about that as well. So yes, I think all books should play by the same set of rules, regardless of topic.
The issue with these books in school libraries isn't just to do with their sexual nature, it's the grooming of young children to pre-maturely identify as LGBTQ that is the problem. You can't deny that certain school administrators, librarians and teachers are now actively encouraging this with their students. That is why there is such a push back here. These folks are attempting to drive a wedge between maladjusted kids and their parents. That is the fulcrum of the problem here.
The government -- via public schools -- should not be allowed to co-parent but that is what their aim is. They want all children belonging to the state, not their parents.
Sorry, I can hardly keep up with who said what, but the overarching theme of the "they're trying to ban books" hysteria is trying to put the conversation outside the realm of what's socially acceptable. I'm sure we can find people who think anything is offensive, but what we're seeing is a tactic to try to invalidate majority cultural norms. And to be clear, I don't mean that majority cultural norms shouldn't become more inclusive and tolerant, but you do that by changing hearts and minds, much as we've seen on the gay marriage issue. This wasn't accomplished by making it unacceptable to say marriage is between a man and a woman. This tactic only hardens and entrenches people. And now we're seeing the backlash. This is why so many people who have seen themselves as progressives have turned away from this movement, because it is not in fact producing progress, but the opposite.
So I am going to give you perhaps an all over the place answer to this, some of it is in agreement with you, some of it is not.
Off the top, I agree with you that you don't garner support for an idea, in general, by "invalidating cultural norms". But, and I am still stuck on this point, pages and pages in, these are book bans. What is happening here, what is happening in Florida, what is happening in Texas, what is happening in Tennessee, what happened in 32 states last year....is a ban. If you prohibit the access to something, you are banning it. Fundamentally, in the purest definition of the term, that is what is happening. Ban doesn't necessarily mean bad or innappropriate; indoor smoking bans for instance are a good thing. Making sure my kids (8 and 7) don't have access to non appropriate age materials (i.e. the book m378 references) is a good thing.
Now there is nuance to this. In the example m378 shared, reasonable people can say "ya, that book has no business being in an elementary school or middle school library. The subject matter and the manner it is being presented in is not age appropriate." I will grant my support for that idea doesn't go all the way through 12th grade. Maybe this is a result of my HS experience, but hard (in a uncomfortable to talk about context) subjects should be discussed. Books on them can be available. I read Tess of D'Urbervilles in 10th grade and that is like 450 pages of Thomas Hardy talking about a 13 year old girl's body using landscapes as a metaphor.
Truth be told, and I am repeating what I said to m378, Gender Q.... is not the hill I am going to die on in this discussion. Its when places go after books on Rosa Parks or Roberto Clemente or MLK Jr or other historical events and figures where the umbrella of "CRT" and "Woke" become catchall terms for "anything this group of people doesn't like" where I look around and "where the F am I and what F'ing year is it?"
For sure, the term strikes a heavy chord. And it should. 1930s Germany is an image that comes to mind. Or Stalin's USSR. Or Mao's China. Or Ho's Vietnam. Or Suharto's Indonesia. Far Left and Far Right regimes have used this tool to the detriment of our species. The banning of thought, free expression and the trading of ideas is the antithesis of the human experience.
As for your point about "hearts and minds" and by the tactic entrenching people. I agree that is an outcome, but I refuse, as a human being, to excuse a belief on the idea that "well that person was mean to me about this somewhat questionable thing I believe, therefore I am going to cling to it more". It's no longer a belief at that point. That's a childish reaction to be asked to explain the unexplainable. Everyone is free to an opinion. But this is an important fact of opinions that people in today's discourse don't like. Opinions, even on "soft subjects" (like civics, versus say hard subjects like Math and Science) can be "wrong". Opinions can ignore facts, opinions can be based on what someone feels. Opinions are built from life experiences and I'm sorry to say, not all life experiences are "equally right". That isn't to say RandomPersonX can't have an opinion on a given topic. But that is to say, even in the face of untenable, tangible evidence (i.e. there is no evidence available to support any opinion on the subject), there can still be a "wrong" opinion. You described it above as "cultural norms"
In our culture, 170 years ago, owning people and viewing them as less human based on the amount of Melanin in their skin was a widely held opinion. There is nothing scientific or morally righteous in that opinion. And there is a wrong opinion on it.
Yes progress takes time. Yes sometimes it requires a "kill em with kindness approach". But from this readers seat....there are opinions unworthy of the sugar take. They are best left dis-engaged and prepped for the dustbin of history, where they rightfully belong.
While folks have been pearl clutching about book bans, the NC GOP passed a 12 week abortion ban in the legislature. The Governor will veto it, but it will be overridden by the Republican supermajority.
While folks have been pearl clutching about book bans, the NC GOP passed a 12 week abortion ban in the legislature. The Governor will veto it, but it will be overridden by the Republican supermajority.
Look at what Republicans do with their power vs. what the Democrats do with theirs.
North Carolina state Rep. Tricia Cotham announced she is switching her party affiliation to the GOP at a news conference in Raleigh on April 5, 2023. Sooo....the above is purely coincidental. I think that abortion rights are a fairly important issue that she just recently flipped on. Is she representing the people that voted for her? Just can't imagine what went on in the back room with the ole white dudes for that to occur.
BTW, I know that it has gone out of fashion for college students to protest an issue like abortion/ women's rights but could they at least get to the polls?
BTW, I know that it has gone out of fashion for college students to protest an issue like abortion/ women's rights but could they at least get to the polls?
Pretty sure there was a protest in Raleigh the other day.
This is a bit hysterical. The Democrats held a death grip on the state through gerrymandering for 100 years. They never reformed redistricting. Republicans eventually broke their back and did the same thing. I doubt it will take another 100 years before Democrats take power back and do exactly the same thing again. Yes, gerrymandering is bad, but it's not illegal and every party does it when in the majority and opposes it in the minority.
The real problem here is the NC Democrats have adopted the national Democratic party line and refuse to create a platform that will appeal to voters and win in the districts as they exist. As the minority party, you can't choose your voters, you have to appeal to the voters. But the Democrats have been dragged hard to the left, so much so that many Democrats can't support them right now. Historically, NC Democrats have been quite a bit more moderate than their national party and they're going to have to return to those roots to be successful in the future.
For reference, I'm a lifelong Democrat and believe in the principals of liberalism now more than ever. I switch my registration to independent after losing confidence in the party after the circus around Kavenaugh and Northam.
Precisely. Perhaps if they were to train their Blue telescopes on Portland and San Fransisco, they'd gain a better understanding of what they're hoping for. Modern liberalism with no conservative buffering has come to more closely resemble a form of insanity than a political ideology. We've gotta get our party's Loony Left back in the basement.
The real problem here is the NC Democrats have adopted the national Democratic party line and refuse to create a platform that will appeal to voters and win in the districts as they exist. As the minority party, you can't choose your voters, you have to appeal to the voters. But the Democrats have been dragged hard to the left, so much so that many Democrats can't support them right now. Historically, NC Democrats have been quite a bit more moderate than their national party and they're going to have to return to those roots to be successful in the future.
For reference, I'm a lifelong Democrat and believe in the principals of liberalism now more than ever. I switch my registration to independent after losing confidence in the party after the circus around Kavenaugh and Northam.
I guess its a matter of perspective...the far more worrisome problem, for me, is the fact that NC republicans have adopted the national party line, and are now enforcing it to a degree that is causing grave damage to our state (and nation, for that matter). I'm more worried about the real crazies, not the hypothetical crazies.
My telescope is trained on Raleigh, because that's our current, real problem, not some red herring city across the country.
I guess its a matter of perspective...the far more worrisome problem, for me, is the fact that NC republicans have adopted the national party line, and are now enforcing it to a degree that is causing grave damage to our state (and nation, for that matter). I'm more worried about the real crazies, not the hypothetical crazies.
My telescope is trained on Raleigh, because that's our current, real problem, not some red herring city across the country.
Keep looking then. Owen, isn't it? There's a problem in Raleigh alright. 49 homicides in 2022 versus 33 in 2021. A 49% increase. And this up already from 27 in 2020. How much more of an influence do you hope for the Loonies to gain? Oh sorry, which problem were YOU talking about?
Last edited by TunedIn; 05-05-2023 at 09:33 AM..
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