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By definition, you cannot be a true christian (in the traditional sense of christianity) and be considered "progressive" because the entire concept of christianity relies on the presumption of "faith", the acceptance of logical fallacies, and the lack of individual reasoning. Progressive thought is characterized by empiricism.
Hmmm... I think that if I address your statement head on we will be way off topic & the thread will be locked. I will say that "progressive" causes, outside of the ivory tower, are often embraced by Christians out in the "real world"... service to the poor & pacifism are 2 examples. There are churches in the Triangle that are more "conservative", and others that are more "progressive" and both are underpinned by faith.
I'll try to answer your original question nurider2002, and I'll try not to insult anyone....
There is no doubt that Raleigh is more conservative than Baltimore/D.C. There is a huge Southern Baptist population down here, and for them, homosexuality is a sin, plain-and-simple (unless you belong to one of the churches that was just thrown out of the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina). http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/121874/
And this guy (Vernon Robinson) managed to garner 36% of the vote for the state congressional seat for Wake county (you've GOT to watch these!)...
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/twilight.wmv (broken link)
http://vernonrobinson.com/robinson_contents/audio/Jeopardy_Spot.mp3 (broken link)
Having said that, not everyone down here is conservative. A majority(?) of Raleigh inhabitants are actually transplants from the north, so it's more liberal than surrounding areas.
My impression, based on polls that I've seen in local newspapers (that unfortunately I cannot find now, so you'll have to trust me), is that the area is roughly divided into the following camps....
1) Homosexuality is morally wrong and a scourge on society, and the law must be used against it. These people are typically for laws like banning gay marriage "to preserve the sanctity of marriage". This group makes up about 40% of the population.
2) Homosexuality is morally wrong, but it's a personal decision. This group is typically okay with the concept of civil unions, but not necessarily gay marriage. This group makes up about 30% of the population
3) There's nothing wrong with homosexuality. Homosexuals deserve the same rights as everyone else. This group makes up about 30% of the population.
(Note...the percentages above are my impression, not based on any hard data)
Bottom line...
You are going to feel less comfortable down here about your sexuality than you would be in D.C.. You will receive more stares of disapproval. You will hear people rallying against homosexuality in the local news.
But other than that, Raleigh is better than D.C/Baltimore in almost every way.
(Note...the percentages above are my impression, not based on any hard data)
Thanks for being honest about that, Ragnor. You've given your opinion and you've a right to that.
I'll share my opinion too as to me some of the impressions you have stem from some misunderstandings.
In America organizations and groups generally form around a core set of values, ideals, or goals. Freedom of association is actually a Constitutional right. Scroll down to the heading "Expressive Association" in the following link and this is further explained:
I am not a Baptist, but I have many acquaintances and friends who are. I know them as caring, altruistic people who uphold values important to them. They do not harbor hate for homosexual people, but desire to help those in that group who desire to move in a different direction. The fact that many do is not something that can be ignored. These homosexuals appreciate the work the Baptists and other organizations like Exodus International do.
It would be one thing if all homosexuals felt the same way about the Baptists, but that is not the case. I've a good friend who was once a homosexual who is now married with children and attends a Baptist church southwest of Raleigh. He feels very loved and cared about in his congregation. I know of another southern church with a support group for homosexuals who may not have decided to change direction, but who are considering it. So all Baptists or Christians cannot be characterized as "throwing people" out who participate in this lifestyle.
My understanding is that the Southern Baptist Convention has sponsored initiatives in order to help homosexuals desiring a different direction. From what I've read the average lifespan for homosexuals in America is around 40 years so from just a health standpoint alone the Baptists have concerns. This is not just a moral issue and their stance is not hatred. It is caring.
So Ragnor, with all due respect for your opinions about Baptists, I feel it important to look at the Constitutional issues involved here and to see Baptists as valuable human beings just as homosexuals are.
You brought up the topic of the Marriage Amendment which supports marriage between one man and one woman. Currently, over half the states in America have adopted the Marriage Amendment via the legislature passing it and then the people voting it in.
The link I share below gives good information on the views of North Carolinians and these stats represent not only the native-born, but transplants as well.
87 percent of North Carolinians favor a Marriage Amendment with only 8 percent opposing. Scroll down to the marriage section in this link:
http://www.jwpcivitasinstitute.org/keylinks/poll_july06.html (broken link)
I respect your right to a different opinion, but felt bringing some facts into this discussion might help shed more light so that hopefully, we can all respect each other as people even if we do have differences.
Skipstone....you seem to be defending when I'm not attacking. I specifically tried not to say whether the marriage amendment proposal was good or bad, but rather that it's an issue that nurider2002 needs to know about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipstone
I am not a Baptist, but I have many acquaintances and friends who are. I know them as caring, altruistic people who uphold values important to them. They do not harbor hate for homosexual people, but desire to help those in that group who desire to move in a different direction. The fact that many do is not something that can be ignored. These homosexuals appreciate the work the Baptists and other organizations like Exodus International do.
So nurider2002 needs to know that many people around him down here would consider him abnormal and in need of their help to 'fix' him. He may feel uncomfortable with that if he doesn't have a problem with his sexuality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipstone
So Ragnor, with all due respect for your opinions about Baptists, I feel it important to look at the Constitutional issues involved here and to see Baptists as valuable human beings just as homosexuals are.
Yes...I'm sorry for somehow implying that Baptists are not human beings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipstone
You brought up the topic of the Marriage Amendment which supports marriage between one man and one woman. Currently, over half the states in America have adopted the Marriage Amendment via the legislature passing it and then the people voting it in.
Yes...and nurider2002 needs to know he's moving into one of these states where it is an issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipstone
The link I share below gives good information on the views of North Carolinians and these stats represent not only the native-born, but transplants as well.
87 percent of North Carolinians favor a Marriage Amendment with only 8 percent opposing. Scroll down to the marriage section in this link:
http://www.jwpcivitasinstitute.org/keylinks/poll_july06.html (broken link)
I respect your right to a different opinion, but felt bringing some facts into this discussion might help shed more light so that hopefully, we can all respect each other as people even if we do have differences.
Yes....thank you for proving my point, which was that North Carolina is a very conservative state. nurider2002 needs to know that he would be moving here. His lifestyle will not be readily accepted by a large portion of the population here.
Two issues about your link though....
1) Raleigh is more liberal than the rest of North Carolina, so the percentage in favor of a marriage amendment is lower here. And that's more important for nurider2002 to know because he would be living in Raleigh, not somewhere else in North Carolina.
2) I take issue with a poll taken by an institute that describes itself as a "research and public policy organization dedicated to providing conservative solutions for North Carolina's pressing issues." Yea...that's going to be an unbiased poll.
Excellent post, Ragnar, and I agree with most of your statements. They're similar to what I've been saying so we're largely in agreement. I would say, however, that in the South it is food that is "fixed" and people can be assisted in helping themselves, but the responsibility for change lies with the person.
Since you question the veracity of the research provided in the link I offered, can you provide a neutral research source showing that Raleigh is more liberal than the rest of NC to prove your point?
Last edited by Skipstone; 01-19-2007 at 02:27 PM..
Being from bigger cities my husband and I would love to see more diversity in our neighborhood and schools but in all honesty I'm not sure my neighbors feel the same.... I think Chapel Hill would be a more comfortable atmosphere for a gay couple. Wish that weren't so but that is my impression...
Since you question the veracity of the research provided in the link I offered, can you provide a neutral research source showing that Raleigh is more liberal than the rest of NC to prove your point?
I would have thought that this was obvious. It's almost a universal truth that urban areas tend to be liberal and rural areas tend to be conservative. And many transplants in the area are from the northeast, which also leans liberal.
WRAL usually had online polls on the marriage amendment debate, and the results were usually around 50/50. Unfortunately, I cannot locate these polls ever since they redesigned their website.
The only 'proof' that I have that Raleigh is less conservative than the rest of North Carolina is that in 2004, Bush won Wake county 51%-49%, whereas he won North Carolina 56%-44%.
Well, JBognar, that's pretty much what I thought you'd say.
You see, the reality is that there is no such thing as an objective poll -- any
organization conducting it will always have human beings involved, and
therefore true objectivity is never possible.
Quote:
WRAL usually had online polls on the marriage amendment debate, and the results were usually around 50/50. Unfortunately, I cannot locate these polls ever since they redesigned their website.
Since you evidently view a WRAL online poll as unbiased then I imagine you also consider the News and Observer an objective source. Neither of these two sources are objective, but for grins I'll play along. You might be interested in this:
http://www.newsobserver.com/163/story/286592.html (broken link).
The N&O poll miraculously unearthed that 56 percent favored a marriage amendment. That number, btw, seems exceedingly low to me considering that Oregon passed their amendment by something like 56 percent of the vote, and it's not a stretch to say that N.C. is more conservative than Oregon. The state of NC would probably pass a marriage amendment in a much higher range, perhaps as high as 70 or more.
I've lived in liberal meccas of the country and I've lived in conservative areas. Wake County's "liberalism" hardly stacks up against most truly liberal counties in this country because the conservative influence is so strong and traditional values run deep. While there are pockets of liberal-minded folks clustered in smaller enclaves like Carrboro or downtown Raleigh, there are very large numbers of conservatives in areas surrounding them. I think you've acknowledged that in an indirect way. But let's be real here: If a couple of homosexuals openly express themselves in a park in downtown Raleigh, they're not going to receive warm fuzzies for it. This is not San Francisco in spite of Durham's parade.
What I'm about to say has nothing with saying one group is good and the other is bad. We're just talking numbers and majorities here in different areas. I want to make that real clear for anyone reading who considers himself a conservative or a liberal.
A liberal moving to Wake County would be like a conservative moving to New York City. Sure, there are some conservatives in NYC, but they are hardly the majority. In the South someone can vote for a Democrat and still be conservative because a lot of the Democrats here are more like Zell Miller in Georgia. But Hillary Clinton would never in a million years get voted in as a senator here in NC no matter how many Orange County voters we have.
They are over-powered by conservatives who vote according to their values which apparently differ from those of liberals. The voting margins may be more narrow in some areas than others, but I've noticed a lot of transplants moving here are conservative. I'm not sure why that is unless they can just sense the flavor here and like it - so they move here. That's not everyone of course, but quite a few. Transplants are not always liberals, in other words.
Anyway, NuRider is of course welcome to move to NC, but his question was this:
Quote:
Is the Raleigh area fairly diverse with socially liberal communities or is it very much a conservative Christian based area?
In order to answer that question we must be honest. NuRider even said he and his partner would prefer a rural area. Downtown Raleigh is hardly rural. He undoubtedly has some wonderful talents in his line of work and so job possibilities can be found all over this country - if that's what he wants. He's welcome to come here, but he asked for an honest answer. I truly hope the best for him and know he'll make the best decision based upon what is really important to him. I hope the many responses on this thread have helped in some small way.
I know if I asked the same question regarding another area I was considering moving to I would really appreciate the feedback.
A liberal moving to Wake County would be like a conservative moving to New York City. Sure, there are some conservatives in NYC, but they are hardly the majority.
I'm not sure I agree with the analogy -- I hear where you're going with this, but I think the weighting is off. A conservative might feel *really* out of place in Manhattan, because in national elections, the city skews heavily, heavily to the left.
Wake County generally much more balanced to me than Manhattan, with conservative pockets and (smaller) liberal pockets. I would agree that Wake on net leans slightly right, but I don't think a liberal would feel as out of place in Wake as a conservative would in NYC. And, as with everything, a lot depends on which neighborhood you choose -- ITB is going to be a lot different than Fuquay-Varina might.
Would be curious what more Wake'rs think on this...?
I'm not sure I agree with the analogy -- I hear where you're going with this, but I think the weighting is off. A conservative might feel *really* out of place in Manhattan, because in national elections, the city skews heavily, heavily to the left.
Wake County generally much more balanced to me than Manhattan, with conservative pockets and (smaller) liberal pockets. I would agree that Wake on net leans slightly right, but I don't think a liberal would feel as out of place in Wake as a conservative would in NYC. And, as with everything, a lot depends on which neighborhood you choose -- ITB is going to be a lot different than Fuquay-Varina might.
Would be curious what more Wake'rs think on this...?
Yes....I completely agree with this.
A more proper analogy would be...
A liberal moving to Fayetteville would be like a conservative moving to New York City.
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