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Since this thread seems to have expanded to include the entire range of male/female relationship issues (including my love life), I will respond.
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Originally Posted by Dewdrop93
Let me ask you this - how is your love life? Have you had good relationships? Do you personally know a lot of women that complain about not finding a decent man? Do you personally complain about not finding a decent woman?
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Originally Posted by cdubs3201
I'm singling this statement out as it's something that bothers me...let me ask you, why does Hans love life history or relationship status have anything to do with the validity of his opinion?
You're right, it doesn't. I thought of this already when I was responding. I answered her question anyway, not to open myself up to being judged for how valuable my opinions are (which is the probable case), but to play out a sort of wishful thinking that someone is kind enough to want to get to know me as a person (the less probable case). So I shared something about my life for that reason. Even if no one else here appreciates my gesture, at least I can appreciate it in my imagination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93
This is the relationship forum. He is giving his opinion on relationships. He is saying how he thinks relationships work. His personal experience is relevant in this case.
Predictably, we see that the "probable case" (as specified above) was actually the case. I was being judged for the relevance of my contribution to the topic. Well, that's OK, it's what I expected.
But, a correction: I was not saying how I think relationships work. I was saying how sexual attraction works (regardless of whether we're talking about relationships, hookups, FWBs, or whatever). And I don't mean "how it works" for all people, all the time, just for a fairly large subset of it.
Another correction: As Cdubs already noted, my personal experience does not determine the validity of my contribution. If I study the mating habits of the dodo bird, then I can have something relevant to say about that, without ever having been a dodo bird. There are even gay therapists who counsel straights, and vice versa. There's nothing invalid about that.
If I may add another observation to this discussion, it is this:
Men often overestimate the degree to which a man's character (as opposed to superficial/materialistic/etc. factors) plays a role in attracting a woman sexually (partly due to wishful thinking, and partly due to hearing what women have to say about this).
I think this misunderstanding is part of what's causing a disconnect over and over again in this thread, and across the relationships forum, and in life.
For example, some women talk about being attracted to a man as soon as she met him, and one of the reasons was his "confidence". Confidence means believing in oneself, and this is something you can't necessarily see on the outside, at least not before taking the time to get to know a person. It's like faith in one's religion, there's no way to tell anything about that upon just meeting a person. Perhaps women want to believe they are looking at something deeper, so they use the word "confidence" to describe what they see. The result is a divergence in the meaning of the word.
Perhaps women delude themselves, to some extent, about whether they're looking at a man's character vs. something more superficial. Maybe they don't even know it.
And as I said already, I'd rather hear truthful relating of bitterness and anger than expressions of fake confidence, fake warmth, etc. The former is indicative of the more solid character. I respect it, even if overdone, because it's truthful. But because it doesn't make a pretty sound, women see it as evidence of a flawed character. In many cases (perhaps not all), they're not even looking at the character behind the presentation (and maybe they can't, without knowing the man well personally). What they know is that it doesn't make them feel good, and they use that as the basis for assessing the man's character (and that's probably happening at this moment, as some of them are reading this). It's a bit of a leap.
Relative to women, men don't indulge in this kind of self-delusion. If they like nice bazongas, they'll just say they like nice bazongas, and that's that.
Another example is to compare Woody Allen to George Clooney, or rather the characters they play. Allen's characters are more confident than Clooney's, because they are not afraid to show themselves. They confide. A typical Clooney character, while being more appealing, would be afraid to show sides of himself, say, some human, neurotic tendencies, that break that consistent appealing image. And therefore it is also true that, as actors, Allen is the more confident one, because he's willing to portray those more human roles. I don't know if there are many women who would rate Allen as being more confident than Clooney, but I'm guessing it would be rare.
Now, here's another interesting disconnect:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDC
Truly perplexing. Then a decade down the road they turn around and claim to have changed. They suddenly "don't date jerks any more." Sorry sweetheart but if you didn't care for people like me before, why should I believe that you care for people like me now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewdrop93
I think that both men and women sometimes go through a wild phase where they really aren't looking to settle down. Even though I've always dated really nice guys (I think most of them are happily married now - most of them with a kid or two, too) - some of my friends used to date some real jerks/b*tches. Well - they grew up and realized they didn't like being treated like dirt....
In this exchange, the man and the women don't really get each other, and probably never will.
For the man, it might help to understand the women as being consumers, more or less. (To the women: I'm not saying that's what they are, it's just a metaphor.) Say you're running a fruit stand. For many years, a bunch of hot babes would walk past your shop and go to the liquor store. Years later, more sober and saggy, they notice your shop and decide they want some fruit. In their view, there's nothing wrong with that. They wanted booze before, and they want fruit now. You should be OK with that. They would not for one minute think about how they treated you coldly all those years while expecting you to give them a warm welcome now.
As for how to help women deal with the man's position on this issue, I haven't got a clue.
You shouldn't have to have an epiphany to realize you don't like being treated like poo; they should have came to their senses long ago
I was talking about both men and women. People learn from life at their own pace - who is to say what is right and wrong. And someone in their late teens/early twenties doesn't always realize when they are being treated poorly. It takes a certain amount of maturity to realize your worth as a human being and to know that you deserve to be loved differently. And once again - I'm talking about both men and women here.
So - all the men on this thread that are complaining about how women don't want to be with them (although they seem to be saying that most women are horrible to begin with so why would you really want to be with them anyway) - have you ever dated someone you didn't want to marry? Have you ever dated someone because you thought they were really hot and then realized that you didn't really like their personality? Have you ever dated anyone just for fun?
Hans - so what would make you happy? What would make you not think so poorly of women?
And I don't see where you answered my question about your personal experiences. If I missed that post - please let me know. And honestly - it would help me understand you. One of my relatives has never been in a relationship that has lasted for more than a few months. When we get into debates - it helps me to understand where he is coming from. I also have a friend that usually dates a-holes. When we talk about relationships - it helps me understand where she is coming from. It is one thing to observe relationships - it is another thing to actually partake in them. There are some things that you have to experience to understand fully. I know you think I'm a dishonest person - I would disagree. But then again - why would you believe someone if you already think they are a liar?
The thing is - I've said this before - in real life - I don't know any women/men haters. It's really only on this forum that I've seen it. And apparently right now - we have an abundance of women haters. I just don't understand it. Every single person is so different. How you can generalize an entire gender and ridicule them and have so much resentment towards them? I just don't understand it. It seems like half the threads on here devolve into why women are horrible creatures. It seems like all the guys think all we care about are looks and money - two things that I couldn't really care less about. I could say that all men care about is a pretty face and a hot body - but the things is, I don't believe it. Yeah - some guys only care about that. But every guy is different. I love men and have dated some of the greatest guys. My husband is pretty much the best person that I know. I could never hate a whole gender, race, religion, etc. Why not judge each person on an individual basis instead of bashing the entire female gender?
A lot of women are already married by age 27 or so.
but women in America have become EXTREMELY picky
I see a logical contradiction between these 2 phrases. How can women really be that picky if half of them are already married by age 27 per census stats? Say it takes a few years to date before marriage. That means half have already found their future marriage partner by 23-25.
I actually think one of the causes for divorce is that women aren't picky enough. Actually, people aren't picky enough, and that's a real shame.
When women say they can't find a decent man, it just means they can't find a decent man they're attracted to, that's attracted to them, that shares the same values, religious and political viewpoints, and all sorts of other areas of compatibility.
You're right to a degree but it's more complex than that even..also I would say from 18-35 there are way more single men...not just 18-30. I've studied the statistics before but it has been a while. I'm not sure I agree that men past 30 don't want to settle down. I think what happens is there are way less women for a 30something guy to choose from. A lot of women are already married by age 27 or so. Some are already divorced by the time they are in their 30's but many are not and are still the honeymoon stage of their first and possibly life long marriage.
One major problem is that in our culture there are too many men that want to multi-date or play around. This causes an imbalance in the dating pool and throws the numbers all off. Many of these guys are already living with a woman, are married/engaged, or in some type of a relationship where the woman is committed, but he isn't.
BUT in saying this I'm still not going to let women off the hook there are plenty of guys that want a monogomous relationship but women in America have become EXTREMELY picky and will write a guy off for just not being a certain height. Now this causes a chain reaction - If 80 percent of the women only want to date 20 percent of the men - This fuels the player lifestyle because many of those 20 percent of men will take full advantage of being able to play field with 80 percent of the women.
Truly perplexing. Then a decade down the road they turn around and claim to have changed. They suddenly "don't date jerks any more." Sorry sweetheart but if you didn't care for people like me before, why should I believe that you care for people like me now?
I dated "jerks" (your term, they were merely like me), because I wasn't looking to settle down, I wanted to have fun. My requirements were attraction and fun.
I was young, why wouldn't I?
When I grew up I had standards on compatibility, stability, etc., etc.
I'm with a guy who was exactly the same. He dated hot surfers. He didn't care much about anything else.
This is NORMAL.
Of COURSE I changed, I grew up and had different priorities. You never change? How sad.
I dated "jerks" (your term, they were merely like me), because I wasn't looking to settle down, I wanted to have fun. My requirements were attraction and fun.
I was young, why wouldn't I?
When I grew up I had standards on compatibility, stability, etc., etc.
I'm with a guy who was exactly the same. He dated hot surfers. He didn't care much about anything else.
This is NORMAL.
Of COURSE I changed, I grew up and had different priorities. You never change? How sad.
Well I've read some of Hurricane's post in the past and even though he's young he seems like a guy who wants a serious relationship. Believe it or not there are young guys out there who want a serious relationship and not just get laid.
Well I've read some of Hurricane's post in the past and even though he's young he seems like a guy who wants a serious relationship. Believe it or not there are young guys out there who want a serious relationship and not just get laid.
And I didn't date guys like him. I'm not a user or cruel. But perhaps I'm the type of girl he refers to liking bad boys or the like? What guys like that need to understand is I dated guys that were appropriate for me. And if he is complaining about girls like that he should understand that maybe they are at a different point in their life?
I dated "jerks" (your term, they were merely like me), because I wasn't looking to settle down, I wanted to have fun. My requirements were attraction and fun.
I was young, why wouldn't I?
When I grew up I had standards on compatibility, stability, etc., etc.
I'm with a guy who was exactly the same. He dated hot surfers. He didn't care much about anything else.
This is NORMAL.
Of COURSE I changed, I grew up and had different priorities. You never change? How sad.
I wouldn't call it normal exactly not all men and women have slept around. Also it's generally easier for a woman to sleep around and sow her oats than a man. You probably turned down a lot of good guys while you were busy chasing the hottest guys sometimes this comes back to haunt a woman when she is older. It just so happens that in your case you found a guy that used to be just as shallow and promiscuous as you. I think what he's saying is he would prefer a woman that didn't go through that phase and was generally always a "nice" girl looking for a "nice" guy. Not all women go through a "bad girl" phase and some are looking for a relationship at a very young age. Even if they aren't it still doesn't mean she sleeps around.
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Originally Posted by Ro2113
Believe it or not there are young guys out there who want a serious relationship and not just get laid.
Correct...and just like girls that are looking for a relationship can get screwed over by one of the bad boys.... this type of guy can get screwed over by one of the women going through her "bad girl" phase.
I wouldn't call it normal exactly not all men and women have slept around. Also it's generally easier for a woman to sleep around and sow her oats than a man. You probably turned down a lot of good guys while you were busy chasing the hottest guys sometimes this comes back to haunt a woman when she is older. It just so happens that in your case you found a guy that used to be just as shallow and promiscuous as you. I think what he's saying is he would prefer a woman that didn't go through that phase and was generally always a "nice" girl looking for a "nice" guy. Not all women go through a "bad girl" phase and some are looking for a relationship at a very young age. Even if they aren't it still doesn't mean she sleeps around.
Correct...and just like girls that are looking for a relationship can get screwed over by one of the bad boys.... this type of guy can get screwed over by one of the women going through her "bad girl" phase.
Who says I slept with any of them? Christ, being young and having fun = promiscuous? Yes, I turned down guys who seemed serious and wanting a relationship because I didn't. This makes me bad? Yeah, should have dated, used your money and moved on? Who's side are you on?!???
I've always been a nice girl. Wanting to go out and have fun doesn't make me a bad person. I never lied, led anyone on, or used them for money. I didn't screw anyone over, and I didn't usually get screwed over.
But that still doesn't make you happy and hate. Why am I not surprised?
Lose - Lose situation.
Way to put yourself in it.
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