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No-one is all or nothing. There are shades of grey in every role. There always have been thoughout history. It's up to men and women to work out what works in THEIR relationship.
Yup. Whatever makes a couple happy.
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In my relationship for example my husband is out fixing my brakes. Later he'll come in and cook dinner. I am doing the laundry and tomorrow I'll go to work because I am the main breadwinner. See, we work together, no cherry picking to suit ourselves, we do whatever we are strongest at, best at, most competent at. It's called working as a team.
That’s right. I am talking about one or the other being completely able to do something but decides not to out of laziness and convenience using “tradition” as an excuse. In my case, it’s not about “my turn…your turn” but about who’s available to take care of something. It’s not about “I am a woman/man, therefore, I should not do X job because that is not tradition” but about who’s more skillful to do it. My girl and I can both romance each other, take initiative, pay for expenses, clean up, etc. But she’s better in some things and I am better in others and complement each other on them. Still, it doesn’t mean that just because I am not good at doing X I will just sit there and wait for her to take care of it, nope, I’ll still do as much as I can and she does as well in other things she is not as skillful as me. Like you said, it is all about teamwork .
So then why do women have better language skills than men? Is that because of society's gender roles? Why is it that women are more free now than ever yet they probably are choosing "feminine" professions more often than they used to 50-100 years ago?
Did society tell women to be attracted to masculine men? Did it tell them to be attracted to dominant men?
Unsure why you're questioning me about the differences between men and women as nowhere did I disput such. Unless you're doing an amusing strawman diversion to evade that likely gender roles are socially constructs as it's highly doubtful that in the times when gender roles were created there was sufficient credible research to document the vast differences in men and women. That it seems more like gender roles were created out of perceived unfounded unproven differences or interpretations.
I'm sorry to inform you that you are, in fact, a man. It's the pants thing. Women only wear skirts and dresses.
When I think masculine - I think of things such as protector, practical, strong. When I think of feminine - I think of things such as nurturer, emotional, soft. Now granted - I'm not saying that in order to be masculine - you have to be those things or that in order to be feminine you have to be those things - these are just the traits that pop into my head. And this isn't to say that a woman can't have masculine traits and a man can't have feminine traits - and that it would take away from anything - these are just the "yin" and "yang" traits that I think of.
Yes, I agree!!!
By saying I think gender roles have a basis in biology, I don't mean stupid things like the colours pink and blue or even dresses. What I mean is that on average, men and women tend to have different emotional traits and process things differently. I think it's dangerous, un-scientific and unfair to men and women alike to deny this just so things seem more 'the same' between the sexes.
I think the vast majority of feminists would agree with me that women inherently tend to be more nurturing and soft, even more moral possibly though that one is a bit more bold a claim. After all the entire idea of feminism is based upon women liberating and empowering themselves out of the immoral greedy selfishness of the male sex who have tried to bring them back for eons untold. Most of the time though not all of the time. I guess inherent qualities bestowed by gender are only true when it's positive and bestowed upon women eh?
Many times I honestly wish we could take traditional, mainstream gender roles and wipe them 100% clean, with a total blank slate For some reason I'm not completely sure of, it is socially-OK for a woman to take on conventionally-masculine behaviors, but the reverse is apparently not OK for most people (i.e., for a straight man to behave in ways more typically associated with feminine traits; for example, a stereotypical sensitive, "sweet", soft-spoken, ultra-affectionate, etc. type of male). I have written many posts and threads in the past about this, but I strongly believe that the conventional hyper-masculine, "guy's guy" norm for males ultimately does males a grave disservice to men in general, by preventing them from exploring the softer, more gentle side of masculinity -- as hyper-masculinity almost always tends to emotionally suppress men from overtly expressing their feelings.
That's the thing too is the fact that feminism tends to fall into a patriarchal trap, it's about virilizing women to 'give them a chance' but not so much about making men more cooperative. Even feminist women secretly think men with feminine traits are quote on quote 'f*ggots' and 'sissies' and look down upon them. It's very much ultimately a product of capitalism and making women equally good consumers. Again, check Edward Bernays and the 'torches of freedom'.
That's the thing too is the fact that feminism tends to fall into a patriarchal trap, it's about virilizing women to 'give them a chance' but not so much about making men more cooperative. Even feminist women secretly think men with feminine traits are quote on quote 'f*ggots' and 'sissies' and look down upon them. It's very much ultimately a product of capitalism and making women equally good consumers. Again, check Edward Bernays and the 'torches of freedom'.
By saying I think gender roles have a basis in biology, I don't mean stupid things like the colours pink and blue or even dresses. What I mean is that on average, men and women tend to have different emotional traits and process things differently. I think it's dangerous, un-scientific and unfair to men and women alike to deny this just so things seem more 'the same' between the sexes.
I think the vast majority of feminists would agree with me that women inherently tend to be more nurturing and soft, even more moral possibly though that one is a bit more bold a claim. After all the entire idea of feminism is based upon women liberating and empowering themselves out of the immoral greedy selfishness of the male sex who have tried to bring them back for eons untold. Most of the time though not all of the time. I guess inherent qualities bestowed by gender are only true when it's positive and bestowed upon women eh?
You had me and then you lost me. Feminism is about equal rights for women. That's it. Anyone who believes women should have equal rights is actually a feminist. It has a bad name now for some reason - but it really is just about equal rights - meaning equal rights under the law. This doesn't have anything to do with dating and love - just the right to vote, the right to equal pay, etc. It's not about putting men in their place or how evil men are - it's about women being recognized as equal human beings.
Why do you think inherent qualities bestowed by gender are only true when it's positive and bestowed upon women? Where did you get that from anything that I posted?
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Originally Posted by donniedarko
That's the thing too is the fact that feminism tends to fall into a patriarchal trap, it's about virilizing women to 'give them a chance' but not so much about making men more cooperative. Even feminist women secretly think men with feminine traits are quote on quote 'f*ggots' and 'sissies' and look down upon them. It's very much ultimately a product of capitalism and making women equally good consumers. Again, check Edward Bernays and the 'torches of freedom'.
Where are you getting this from? Many of my friends are actually gay - and the "f" word is one of the most foul words to me. I don't know any woman that thinks this way.
You had me and then you lost me. Feminism is about equal rights for women. That's it. Anyone who believes women should have equal rights is actually a feminist. It has a bad name now for some reason - but it really is just about equal rights - meaning equal rights under the law. This doesn't have anything to do with dating and love - just the right to vote, the right to equal pay, etc. It's not about putting men in their place or how evil men are - it's about women being recognized as equal human beings.
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The thing is I don't think women have ever been thought of as being less human. Men and women historically were valued for different things.
Yes, I know that technically, the definition of feminism is the belief the sexes are equal. If you go by the dictionary, yes, I am a feminist and I think any reasonable human being is a feminist. But, the vast majority of self-described feminists I know have a complex of victimhood and feel that women are treated as sub-human and it's because of male immorality and selfishness.
The thing is I don't think women have ever been thought of as being less human. Men and women historically were valued for different things.
Yes, I know that technically, the definition of feminism is the belief the sexes are equal. If you go by the dictionary, yes, I am a feminist and I think any reasonable human being is a feminist. But, the vast majority of self-described feminists I know have a complex of victimhood and feel that women are treated as sub-human and it's because of male immorality and selfishness.
Well, maybe you need to find some new friends. I certainly don't think so. I don't think that the majority of males are immoral and selfish. I do think that some are - just as some women are - but 50 or 60 years ago - women were powerless. I have a hard time seeing not having the right to vote, being sold as chattel in marriage, not being allowed to make any money therefore not having any means of independence as being valued as a human being.
I love men. How could I think they are all immoral, selfish, evil, etc. I'm just glad that I can be a performer, a wife, and now a stay at home mother because I CHOOSE to be these things. I'm glad that I can vote and make money and do things with out my husband's permission (well, we usually consult each other on all the big decisions but you get my point!).
Well, maybe you need to find some new friends. I certainly don't think so. I don't think that the majority of males are immoral and selfish. I do think that some are - just as some women are - but 50 or 60 years ago - women were powerless. I have a hard time seeing not having the right to vote, being sold as chattel in marriage, not being allowed to make any money therefore not having any means of independence as being valued as a human being.
Let me ask you this - if men aren't more inherently selfish than women are, then why you do you men historically were so mean to women? Would you at least admit to believing there are more bad men than bad women?
Keep in mind that for a long time, only land owners could vote. Since the estate was generally held the responsibility of the male, the responsibility for voting would have fallen on the men. I consider voting as much if not more of a responsibility than a right. I hate voting, I would rather not do it. I'm not saying women shouldn't be allowed the vote because that's ridiculous, of course women's suffrage was a good thing, but if I were denied the vote, honestly I wouldn't care that much, especially considering our system is a joke anyways.
Yes, it sucks that women were sold into marriage. But you know what? Life was tough before the Industrial Revolution. Men weren't living it up either. Men were forced to go to war whether they supported the cause or not. While women were stuck at home making and taking care of babies, men were getting injured and dying on the job.
Patriarchal cultures actually highly value women in other realms of life, such as for being mothers. Italians, Spaniards, Indians, Muslims and Latin Americans are very macho cultures and are often cited as being anti-female, but they absolutely adore their mothers and are quick to avenge the honour of a woman. In a feminist society such as Canada or Sweden, women are more highly valued as CEOs or politicians but their role within the family is not placed as high. I'm not saying either is better or worse, it's just different.
I actually think the whole concept of 'humanity' is quite a recent one. Even today, most people, let's be honest, consider people outside of their family somewhat less 'human' than their flesh and blood. It's wrong and unfortunate but undeniably true.
I also find that people are quicker to hate men. How many women are executed by the state? Not very many. If a woman does a horrific crime, in most cases, people will blame it on a man who abused her or on her mental health. Of course there are exceptions, such as Casey Anthony where pretty much everyone wanted to throw a stone. But I definitely think people are more quick to write off men as being 'creepy' or 'evil'.If a woman abuses her boyfriend or husband people will presume the man deserves it for whatever reason, and will demonize the man if they try to defend themselves in any way. On the other hand, I do think people tend to look down on women for defending themselves as well, but men being abused by women are judged even more harshly.
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