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Seems reasonable to me. I've never met a woman that isn't a feminist (thank god), even if they don't self identify as one (which is rare in itself).
Well, yes, I agree. But it's so often used as a pejorative on this forum. I can't help but wonder why the OP chose that word, instead of simply asking for women's dating advice.
Seems reasonable to me. I've never met a woman that isn't a feminist (thank god), even if they don't self identify as one (which is rare in itself).
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Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
Well, yes, I agree. But it's so often used as a pejorative on this forum. I can't help but wonder why the OP chose that word, instead of simply asking for women's dating advice.
Good points on both parts.
I said I don't think of myself as a feminist, but you know, I do believe I should have the right to vote, own property, be treated as a full adult, etc. I think the vast majority of modern adults in the US are "feminists" in this regard--in regards to society. And in this regard, yes, I am a feminist too.
When I think of feminist vs non-feminist in terms of how it's used in this forum (and in terms of relationships), I tend to think of it as "non-traditional gender roles" vs "traditional gender roles" in romantic relationships. At least, it seems to me that's the way it's used here. I tend to prefer the more traditional gender roles when it comes to a personal relationship. In this regard, I don't identify as feminist. But in reality, "feminist" isn't the right word. It should be "traditional" vs "liberal" in relationships.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jillabean
When I think of feminist vs non-feminist in terms of how it's used in this forum (and in terms of relationships), I tend to think of it as "non-traditional gender roles" vs "traditional gender roles" in romantic relationships. At least, it seems to me that's the way it's used here. I tend to prefer the more traditional gender roles when it comes to a personal relationship. In this regard, I don't identify as feminist. But in reality, "feminist" isn't the right word. It should be "traditional" vs "liberal" in relationships.
Huh, ok, yeah, I wouldn't call this feminism... but I hear what you're saying. To me feminism just has to do with you being able to choose what role works for you and that being ok. If you want and feel more comfortable in a traditional role, cool. If you want and feel more comfortable in a different role, then that is cool it. It's the freedom to be who you want to me. There are plenty of feminists staying at home, raising kids and having food on the table for supper. At least that's how I've always viewed it (in a second wave perspective).
OK, maybe instead of the word "feminist", I should have used "woman who has strong opinions about gender inequality". I think most women only have a vague idea about ideas like "rape culture", "male privilege", and "patriarchy". I'm looking for opinions from people who believe in ending such structures but at the same time have some practical advice for people like socially anxious men, who if left in the care of pickup artists, are in danger of perpetuating them.
OK, maybe instead of the word "feminist", I should have used "woman who has strong opinions about gender inequality". I think most women only have a vague idea about ideas like "rape culture", "male privilege", and "patriarchy". I'm looking for opinions from people who believe in ending such structures but at the same time have some practical advice for people like socially anxious men, who if left in the care of pickup artists, are in danger of perpetuating them.
I've gotta give you credit for your thoughtfulness and insight.
OK, maybe instead of the word "feminist", I should have used "woman who has strong opinions about gender inequality". I think most women only have a vague idea about ideas like "rape culture", "male privilege", and "patriarchy". I'm looking for opinions from people who believe in ending such structures but at the same time have some practical advice for people like socially anxious men, who if left in the care of pickup artists, are in danger of perpetuating them.
Are feminists and women with strong opinions about gender inequality the only people who believe in ending such structures? No. So I don't get why you chose to frame it that way. As for the men who end up gravitating towards the PUA crowd, these men would've ended up there anyway. Just because someone is a "nice guy" doesn't mean they actually respect women or see them as people. What distinguishes the bad boy who treats women like trash from these nice guys is that the bad boy succeeds at picking up women. The nice guy wants to achieve the same success and therefore decides to emulate the bad boy, hence the reason he falls in with the PUA crowd. This man is unlikely to listen to "feminist" advice. Why? Because he doesn't respect women. If listens to anyone, it'll be other men. So in one ear, he's got the PUA telling him all the ways to snag women. In the other ear (hopefully), he's got FAR MORE men telling him why he should stay away from the PUA folks.
Are feminists and women with strong opinions about gender inequality the only people who believe in ending such structures?
No, but most people who don't have strong opinions about gender inequality don't give these structures much of a thought, even if they are affected by them everyday. They are against them in principle. Sort of like how most people are against air pollution but aren't environmentalists.
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Originally Posted by DennyCrane
No. So I don't get why you chose to frame it that way. As for the men who end up gravitating towards the PUA crowd, these men would've ended up there anyway. Just because someone is a "nice guy" doesn't mean they actually respect women or see them as people. What distinguishes the bad boy who treats women like trash from these nice guys is that the bad boy succeeds at picking up women. The nice guy wants to achieve the same success and therefore decides to emulate the bad boy, hence the reason he falls in with the PUA crowd. This man is unlikely to listen to "feminist" advice. Why? Because he doesn't respect women. If listens to anyone, it'll be other men. So in one ear, he's got the PUA telling him all the ways to snag women. In the other ear (hopefully), he's got FAR MORE men telling him why he should stay away from the PUA folks.
Did you not read the OP:
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Originally Posted by usuario
Although a few of these people are dishonest "Nice Guys" who hope that being nice will help them get laid (which never works), others simply want to love and be loved, and want to improve their own personality and strategies to be able to get into a long term relationship without having to resort to becoming women-haters (misogynists).
I very much agree with you, OP, that a lot of guys end up with PUA because it promises a quick fix and they don't see alternatives.
I think there is a large, untapped market in this. Of course, it faces the usual problem -- liberals don't like to tell people what to do .
I do think the key is to focus on personal growth for its own sake, and not focus on women. I was very shy when younger, but when I worked on changing it was just to improve my life in all ways, not specifically to 'get' men (or women).
Beyond, that, my advice is to seek out movies, books, games, and websites that are made by and for women. Learn how women think. So many guys of the type you are asking about seem to ghettoize themselves in a male-only world, and I think this is a huge part of their problem. Women are aliens to them.
And, of course, make close friendships with women you are not interested in ever dating.
Guys shouldn't ask for advice from women period, feminist or not. Befriend a man who is successful with women
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