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BTW the original article that I put at the beginning of this thread was written by a woman in case people didn't notice.
The falling marriage rates IMO has to do with men, women, and family law IMO. Many people have said that people shouldn't marry before 30 and I agree with that. There are a number of man boys out there living in their parents basement, not going to college working odd jobs and playing video games. If they want to do that its fine with me, I don't care because it doesn't effect me since I don't date guys :P Women seem to be frustrated with men which is also causing men to be frustrated with women. Men don't seem to be good enough for a lot of women these days causing them to moan and men are moaning that women aren't women anymore.
Yes, some women are frustrated with men. Say a woman is the primary breadwinner, like I was. Okay, fine. But if the guy then flits from part-time job to part-time job, takes a couple of classes, and sits on his butt playing video games all day so that she comes home to a mess in addition to working 8 hours and commuting 2 more? And THEN asks her what she feels like doing for dinner, which was his code for "are you cooking or are we calling a pizza?" And THEN starts dropping hints about wanting a kid? When the original deal was he'd finish school, get a job, and get on with a career?
Okay, I didn't want kids, so that was the end of the marriage. But say I did. What does a woman in that kind of situation get out of marriage?
She works.
She commutes.
She pays the bills.
She manages the money.
She cooks.
She comes home to a mess.
She supports a man.
AND then she has to put her body through pregnancy and labor?
AND then, because let's be honest here, she'll still get to do most of the child-rearing while Hubbo over there levels up?
AND then she has to worry about her career being mommy-tracked as she is trying to feed not only herself and her husband, but now a child, too?
What, exactly, is in marriage for her?
Aside from doing dang near everything?
So yes, a lot of women, consciously or not, probably do feel that if they're going to go through pregnancy, labor, and most of the child-rearing, they dang sure want to be able to at least take extended maternity leave under FMLA without having to worry about declaring bankruptcy because Hubbo can't get his arse off a couch and earn some coin.
I think it really depends on the disparity. A woman making 150K probably isn't going to marry a guy making 40K. But then a lot of men who make 150K probably wouldn't marry a woman who made 40K.
When have guys ever cared about a woman's money? For a variety of reasons I have a pretty wide range of friends and I can't think of a single guy that has ever said "why can't I find a woman on my level", "I am going to marry a Dr. when I grow up", or "my gf/date was such a loser/cheapskate she couldn't even afford to pay for me".
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane
On the other hand, I can't see a woman making a big deal if the guy she's with makes slightly less than her. Say she made 75K and he made 50K. It's only when the differences are extreme that it matters.
I can. Maybe not over $5K, but over $25K? Definitely?
Then there is family law. Marriage is a huge financial risk now. A failed marriage with 1-2 kids and alimony is financial ruin and with 50% divorce rates you would have better odds betting your savings on black on a roulette table. Getting married without a prenup is foolhardy.
And yet the more affluent and educated are the ones getting married... Not to mention their divorce rates are lower, certainly not 50%. HTH
When have guys ever cared about a woman's money? For a variety of reasons I have a pretty wide range of friends and I can't think of a single guy that has ever said "why can't I find a woman on my level", "I am going to marry a Dr. when I grow up", or "my gf/date was such a loser/cheapskate she couldn't even afford to pay for me"
I could point you to several members on this very subforum who have whined about paying for dates that they, themselves, have asked the women for.
It could be an age thing, because those guys tend to be younger. I've never heard such petulance from the mouths of my guy friends, myself, and my guy friends are pretty liberated and liberal. They just know that despite what a few people on this forum like to believe, all things being equal, a man still usually gets paid more for the same job than a woman, so they don't quibble over the tab.
Sure there are people still getting married but its undeniable that the marriage rates are falling and people are marrying later.
Then there is family law. Marriage is a huge financial risk now. A failed marriage with 1-2 kids and alimony is financial ruin and with 50% divorce rates you would have better odds betting your savings on black on a roulette table. Getting married without a prenup is foolhardy.
You probably missed my earlier responses, but family law doesn't really have anything to do with marriage. Think about it for a minute. If you have a kid(s) then you will still have to pay 20-50% in child support to the custodial parent and that doesn't change if you have a kid out of wedlock. Alimony is pretty rare as long as you make your spouse go to work to keep their skills up to date, so that is a non issue for most states. (CA has mandatory alimony, but that is the exception.) The divorce rate among the college educated is about 20% and the more liberal states have the lowest divorce rates, so these people that complain about feminists and the divorce rate are usually not dealing is accurate facts.
However, I do agree that marriage is a financial risk. The big issue I have with it is asset division. If one spouse brought in 70% of the income then they should be able to leave with 70% of the assets, but even that gets complicated because sometimes one spouse will spend while the other will save. The only difference between my current relationship and marriage is my gf has no right to my assets if we break up and we won't get hit with a tax penalty - ever.
Marriage does makes sense for some people though. If you want to stay at home then marriage gives you a claim against the other person's assets which does seem like a fairish trade. A nanny is going to run you $20-$30K/yr, a cook, maid, and personal assistant will run you at least $10-$15/hr, but even this arrangement is problematic because if one partner stays home they still have half of the obligation of running the house and raising kids and would likewise incur half of the cost. This stuff is a nightmare trying to sort out fairly imo.
I could point you to several members on this very subforum who have whined about paying for dates that they, themselves, have asked the women for.
It could be an age thing, because those guys tend to be younger. I've never heard such petulance from the mouths of my guy friends, myself, and my guy friends are pretty liberated and liberal.
Paying for a woman goes with the territory though. I don't even think it's an age thing. Most every guy I know, knows that they are going to have to spend money if they want to get laid regularly. I know one guy that doesn't spend anything, but he's got mad game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilac110
They just know that despite what a few people on this forum like to believe, all things being equal, a man still usually gets paid more for the same job than a woman, so they don't quibble over the tab.
Not according to the FED or Census. Men do get paid more, but also work more and go into different fields.
Yes, some women are frustrated with men. Say a woman is the primary breadwinner, like I was. Okay, fine. But if the guy then flits from part-time job to part-time job, takes a couple of classes, and sits on his butt playing video games all day so that she comes home to a mess in addition to working 8 hours and commuting 2 more? And THEN asks her what she feels like doing for dinner, which was his code for "are you cooking or are we calling a pizza?" And THEN starts dropping hints about wanting a kid? When the original deal was he'd finish school, get a job, and get on with a career?
Okay, I didn't want kids, so that was the end of the marriage. But say I did. What does a woman in that kind of situation get out of marriage?
She works.
She commutes.
She pays the bills.
She manages the money.
She cooks.
She comes home to a mess.
She supports a man.
AND then she has to put her body through pregnancy and labor?
AND then, because let's be honest here, she'll still get to do most of the child-rearing while Hubbo over there levels up?
AND then she has to worry about her career being mommy-tracked as she is trying to feed not only herself and her husband, but now a child, too?
What, exactly, is in marriage for her?
Aside from doing dang near everything?
So yes, a lot of women, consciously or not, probably do feel that if they're going to go through pregnancy, labor, and most of the child-rearing, they dang sure want to be able to at least take extended maternity leave under FMLA without having to worry about declaring bankruptcy because Hubbo can't get his arse off a couch and earn some coin.
What you have right there besides the pregnancy issue is a gender role reversal. Welcome to equality and life as a man! Now just imagine since you were the bread winner and made more then him that the family law judge ruled that you had to pay him alimony to keep him at the lifestyle that he was accustomed to during your marriage. So wait, you did most of the work and made most of the money and now have to pay him more money after you separated because he was a loser? That is what a lot of men have gone through. Good friend of mine was married with two daughters, wife was SAHM. He would work 8-14 hour day and when he got home the house was a mess and his wife would say that it was now her turn to get out of the house and she would leave. So he went from being the bread winner to house husband with no time for himself, this continued on for months.
For the record I personally take a dim view of men that aren't 'men' by my standards. However I don't have any sympathy for women that choose to marry or date these kind of men because she chose to be with him, no one is forcing her to be with him. Just like I don't have sympathy for men that knowingly support a gold digger. Men and women that have been mislead and/or lied to by their SO I do have sympathy for.
Last edited by Montanaguy04; 03-16-2015 at 06:32 PM..
BTW the original article that I put at the beginning of this thread was written by a woman in case people didn't notice.
So?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montanaguy04
Women seem to be frustrated with men which is also causing men to be frustrated with women. Men don't seem to be good enough for a lot of women these days causing them to moan and men are moaning that women aren't women anymore.
You act like this is a recent development. But it isn't. Men and women have been complaining about each from The Stone Age.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montanaguy04
Sure there are people still getting married but its undeniable that the marriage rates are falling and people are marrying later.
No one is denying that marriage rates are falling. What we dispute is the cause(s). I personally think it has more to do people seeing marriage as archaic and less about their fears of divorce or losing half their financial assets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montanaguy04
A failed marriage with 1-2 kids and alimony is financial ruin and with 50% divorce rates you would have better odds betting your savings on black on a roulette table.
You do realize this 50% is out of date and that the divorce rate is actually lower, don't you? As for the odds of a marriage succeeding, comparing it to a roulette table suggests that you have no control over the outcome. But you do, starting with who you marry. We can bemoan the high divorce rate, but a lot of it just comes down to people marrying the wrong people, only it takes them years to realize it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lycos679
When have guys ever cared about a woman's money? For a variety of reasons I have a pretty wide range of friends and I can't think of a single guy that has ever said "why can't I find a woman on my level", "I am going to marry a Dr. when I grow up", or "my gf/date was such a loser/cheapskate she couldn't even afford to pay for me".
That's funny, because on this forum alone and you'll find plenty of guys whining about women are chasing after money. Well, if I were afraid of some woman wanting me for my high income, I'd probably avoid someone who makes a lot less and focus on people who make the same income as me. That way, there's less chance of them needing me for my money since they have money of their own. I've met plenty of guys who think like this. They're established in their careers making good money, own a nice house, and a have an investment portfolio that's performing well. The OP talks about the risk of losing so much financially in a divorce. Well, that sounds like a pretty good reason to not marry someone who makes a lot less than you. Cause then when you divorce, she'll do even better since she wasn't even bringing in half the income.
That's funny, because on this forum alone and you'll find plenty of guys whining about women are chasing after money. Well, if I were afraid of some woman wanting me for my high income, I'd probably avoid someone who makes a lot less and focus on people who make the same income as me. That way, there's less chance of them needing me for my money since they have money of their own. I've met plenty of guys who think like this. They're established in their careers making good money, own a nice house, and a have an investment portfolio that's performing well.
I never said guys don't whine about women chasing money. What I said/asked was when have guys ever cared about a woman's money? I've been dating since I was 13 and I can't think of a single guy in that time that has ever cared about what car a girl drives, how much money she has, her major, how much she makes, or anything related to finances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyCrane
The OP talks about the risk of losing so much financially in a divorce. Well, that sounds like a pretty good reason to not marry someone who makes a lot less than you. Cause then when you divorce, she'll do even better since she wasn't even bringing in half the income.
Depends on the state actually. There are only 10 community property states left, but the rest of the country goes by what is a fair distribution. How fair the settlement actually is depends on the variables involved in the case. A 3 month marriage won't usually entitle a person to half of the marital property in a non community state.
Yes, some women are frustrated with men. Say a woman is the primary breadwinner, like I was. Okay, fine. But if the guy then flits from part-time job to part-time job, takes a couple of classes, and sits on his butt playing video games all day so that she comes home to a mess in addition to working 8 hours and commuting 2 more? And THEN asks her what she feels like doing for dinner, which was his code for "are you cooking or are we calling a pizza?" And THEN starts dropping hints about wanting a kid? When the original deal was he'd finish school, get a job, and get on with a career?
Okay, I didn't want kids, so that was the end of the marriage. But say I did. What does a woman in that kind of situation get out of marriage?
She works.
She commutes.
She pays the bills.
She manages the money.
She cooks.
She comes home to a mess.
She supports a man.
AND then she has to put her body through pregnancy and labor?
AND then, because let's be honest here, she'll still get to do most of the child-rearing while Hubbo over there levels up?
AND then she has to worry about her career being mommy-tracked as she is trying to feed not only herself and her husband, but now a child, too?
What, exactly, is in marriage for her?
Aside from doing dang near everything?
So yes, a lot of women, consciously or not, probably do feel that if they're going to go through pregnancy, labor, and most of the child-rearing, they dang sure want to be able to at least take extended maternity leave under FMLA without having to worry about declaring bankruptcy because Hubbo can't get his arse off a couch and earn some coin.
Women should get the same advice that men get in this situation: you chose poorly. You should change what you find attractive from shallow attributes to substantive ones.
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