This man sent his date an invoice after she ghosted him (feelings, different)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm not saying that the paying affects equality. I'm saying that the expectation that men pay, held by either men or women, is a vestige of a time when women couldn't afford to pay or a time when their would have been genuine scandal for both pasrties had word gotten out that she paid. In any case, the expectation is a form of benevolent sexism, and the dynamic I described is precisely where it all goes wrong. In threads on this site some men and women talk about men being cheap, or worse yet somehow less manly if they allow a women to pay. It's almost funny. Not quite though.
Edit: There would have been scandal for both parties
I'm not sure this is currently very relevant or in the front of one's consciousness any more than it's currently relevant and a consciously thought out thing that I shake hands with someone to prove to him that I'm not carrying a weapon. Or that I automatically say "bless you" to someone who sneezes even though I have no religion or official belief system and I'm shaky on whether there's such a thing as blessings at all. Or that I politely thank a client even if I absolutely hated him.
"Niceties," graces and traditions sometimes just stick around. They're shows of good faith and cooperation more so than they are based on need. We're people; we don't just do utilitarian or logical things. We have traditions, little "extras," we're creative everywhere, including social interaction. If not we'd be boring as hell.
Now if someone wants to hate that pay-for-the-date thing, okay, say so. If your date doesn't like that, don't have the date. Find someone more your speed. Duh. Done. Just like ANYTHING else in dating where you either click or you don't. Big deal.
The most foot-stomping I see about the paying thing tends to be when the guy paid with the obvious intent to "get something" in return, whether warming up by just "getting" that follow-up date, or getting something official that very night. When it doesn't happen, ZOMG he's not made of money, this is so unfair and puts men in a bad position, hear-tearing, breast-beating. When he does get a little...crickets on the expense and his budget and feminism (isn't the woman having sex with the guy by choice, "feminism" too? Hmm) and blah blah. All of a sudden...that stuff just doesn't matter. Uh...
Geez, some people are wet blankets. DON'T pay for dates thinking the girl will be grateful, pay ONLY if you WANT to, go dutch otherwise, voila, done.
More fun to picture the guy ordering pork tacos for her, then sending her a bill.
Even Lobster Guy didn't send a bill, he just wanted to know what we thought of that strong independent woman.
We're never hearing from the guys who wonder what to think when the woman pays.
They're out there dating, I guess, and don't have any questions.
Only the guys who end up with Entitled Princesses have a question, and I think that may speak volumes about their pickers.
(nodding)
Guys with good pickers, don't pick princesses because they want to look cool with a "9" on their arm and proceed beg for crumbs 'cause if they can get some...then they must be REAL alphas! (Look, Other Guys, look looooooooook! Whoz da man!). They pick awesome chicks who like them back and who are more than happy to switch off regularly on the paying thing.
When I was dating, even when the guy insisted on paying first, which was more common 20-30 years ago, we'd automatically start switching off. He'd pay first because HE wanted to and I didn't consider it a hill to die on, LOL. It was a date...it was supposed to be fun. Never made a scene, just offered, officially, wallet out. But after that first nicety, which was sweet, we'd always switch off as the relationship went on. Often it would be the guy saying, "Oh, it's fine, you can pay next time" playfully. Then that's what would happen and so life would go on. I mean...we always both had jobs so there ya go.
But I can say that I never, ever had the dating stop (after the first, second or whatever date) and then the guy freak out because he'd "paid" for the dates. He was selecting me based on a whole bunch of things and I was selecting him on a whole bunch of things and one of those things was at least the appearance of some integrity, LOL. WhoTH are people picking that really really bad, very one-sided situations come up routinely????
All of this is why I do my best to either avoid dinner "dates," or to excuse myself from the table to go quietly ask the server for separate checks. The guy is usually surprised to see two checks arrive at the end of the meal, but the good news is that he doesn't have to pay for me, and I, in turn, am not given an IOU.
You are a REAL self independent woman!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catgirl64
I have asked men out, and paid for the meal, drinks, movie, concert, whatever. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, buddy.
Yeah. I got the point. And it was just one more chance to prove feminism is hypocrisy, which I was pointing out may not be true at all.
ANY time we hear about a man paying for a date around here, a percentage will assume the woman was a little princess sitting on her tower playing with her cell phone and giggling when the check came, the very image of one-dimensional, almost cartoonish entitlement, and it gets wearing. From this guy's reaction we can pretty much assume, though, that things didn't play out this way...as I pointed out. He obviously would have had no problem with paying if he'd "gotten" whatever he wanted in return (which would indicate he was enthusiastic about paying that check), plus he DIDN'T state or even hint that she'd acted entitled and so on, so there you go. We can't "know" for sure that things happened this way but by the same token it's also pretty laughable to assume this was a feminism bust and hypocrisy, and to be sure to go out of one's way to make a snark about that.
To say nothing of the utter silliness of someone using pork tacos and a drink as proof that feminism is a bust and women lie about it. Tacos! LOL. Any woman who IS strong and independent (and who knows if this woman even is...she didn't stand up and say so) isn't really going to consider paying for a freakin' taco, proof of independence. This isn't 1971. We don't have to hit our date with our bag and physically restrain him from paying for a cup of coffee in order to hold onto proof that we are independent.
There seems to be a belief that all women are "feminists"and believe that a woman being independent means that they don't want a man do anything for them and that expecting anything means a woman is entitled, yet most men expect and feeled entitled to sex but they say nothing about that. They just complain about whatever their misconstured idea of what feminism is when women don't give them their way.
This whole MGOTW movement consists mostly of loser, unattractive men who have no social skills and can't get dates or get laid and blame feminism and female independence when their misogyny and crappy attitudes are the real problem. Men who make black-and-white assumptions about women and feminisism sound like these dudes.
A lot of women still have traditional views or values when it comes to dating and relationships and appreciate chilvary, but men see this as being taken advantage of, particularly if they feel they aren't getting what they want.
I am an independent woman, but not of the I-don't-need-a-man variety (that is not a belief I've ever held). I am independent in that I am single and therefore I support myelf and take care of my business (as all adults should) with no help from anyone. No, I don't NEED man, but I would like to have relationship with one. That doesn't mean I don't want traditional dating. I do. I personally don't know any women who run around proclaiming who clailm they are so independent that they don't need or want a man. I hear men complain about these kind of women, but I have never known women like this. I appreciate it when men do chivalrous things for me and I always say thank you. I sometimes hold the door for men, not because I am independent or loathe men doing anything for me, but if I see a man struggling with packages or his hands are full, that's just the human thing to do. If a man is coming behind me, I don't just let the door shut.
A similar thing happened on the Bert Show ten years ago. A woman called in and played the voicemail a guy she went out on a date with left her. Because she didn't want to go out with him again, he called her, leaving nasty voicemails demanding his money back, saying she drank the food and ate the wine so now she needs to pay up. A friend of mine went out with a guy and she didn't like him after the date, so he started calling her harrassing her for his money back. So that he would leave her alone, she just met him someplace and give him his money back.
If you are an independent woman, you're judged. If you are a woman who expects traditional dating, you're entitled. It's like you can't win.
A similar thing happened on the Bert Show ten years ago. A woman called in and played the voicemail a guy she went out on a date with left her. Because she didn't want to go out with him again, he called her, leaving nasty voicemails demanding his money back, saying she drank the food and ate the wine so now she needs to pay up. A friend of mine went out with a guy and she didn't like him after the date, so he started calling her harrassing her for his money back. So that he would leave her alone, she just met him someplace and give him his money back.
If you are an independent woman, you're judged. If you are a woman who expects traditional dating, you're entitled. It's like you can't win.
Those are horrible examples and those men aren't bad "guys" they're just bad human beings. But presumably, the women in your examples actively communicated their intent not to see these "gentlemen" again, and that's the "adult" thing to do. That is in stark contrast, however, to the Casper act performed by the lady in the original post. Me or any of the men here pointing-out how inconsiderate that was certainly doesn't make us one of the really bad MGTOW types. That's an affair leap.
Those are horrible examples and those men aren't bad "guys" they're just bad human beings. But presumably, the women in your examples actively communicated their intent not to see these "gentlemen" again, and that's the "adult" thing to do. That is in stark contrast, however, to the Casper act performed by the lady in the original post. Me or any of the men here pointing-out how inconsiderate that was certainly doesn't make us one of the really bad MGTOW types. That's an affair leap.
Yes, they are bad human beings who happen to be men who hate women.
Men ghost women all the time too. No guy who has not followed up with me for a second date has ever contacted to me tell me there would be no second date or to tell me that their are not interested. I just know that if I typically don't hear from a guy within 24-48 hours after a date, he's never going to call again and I just move on.
Most people ghost after a date they aren't feeling. Doesn't matter if it's right on wrong, it's a reality of dating that both men and women should be prepared for and just move on when it happens. I've been ghosted enough times to where it doesn't phase me much anymore so I guess I see it differently. I mean yeah, my feeling are hurt because I don't go out with a guy unless I really like them, but still, I dust my hands off and move on. And the men who ghost me typically pay for the meal, yet they never call me and say, "You know, you're a really nice lady but I'm not feeling you. Can I have my money back, please?"
. A friend of mine went out with a guy and she didn't like him after the date, so he started calling her harrassing her for his money back. So that he would leave her alone, she just met him someplace and give him his money back.
I copied and pasted the above as an excerpt from a post a little further back.
Now I’ve been visiting the U.S. since I first came over for your 200th birthday, back in 1976.
I’ve never had a bad time there, love the place, been to maybe 18 or more of the lower 48, and met a lot of nice people, plus maybe one or two jerks, but they were very much in the minority.
However, a guy calling and asking for his money back because a woman has declined a second date seems so totally alien to me as a guy from the U.K., that I felt that I had to say, that there’d be more chance of the Donald becoming King of England, than hearing of a guy from the U.K. doing that.
Still, it won’t alter my view of America, nor of Americans, we’ll be in Atlanta GA come September, then a day or two later, Savannah GA for around ten days.
Looking forward to grits for breakfast, and maybe fried green tomatoes at dinner time.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
He obviously would have had no problem with paying if he'd "gotten" whatever he wanted in return (which would indicate he was enthusiastic about paying that check), plus he DIDN'T state or even hint that she'd acted entitled and so on, so there you go. We can't "know" for sure that things happened this way but by the same token it's also pretty laughable to assume this was a feminism bust and hypocrisy, and to be sure to go out of one's way to make a snark about that.
