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[shelato]

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

There are a lot of different...shades? so to speak?...of porn and people who make it. There's far too much exploitation, from desperate people who really don't WANT to be doing it, to the trafficked, to partners who record consensual sex with or without permission, but then put it online without consent. All of that is terrible and there's way too much of it. But there are also plenty of people who have just embraced the fact that they can get paid for doing something that they find to be fun. And in fact there ARE some porn actresses, notably some of the big "stars" who were in on the ground floor of video before it was free online, who made bank and went on to be successful investors and are not sketchy people in the way that they live. Are they going to be "respected" by the pearl clutching PTA set? Maybe not. Though it's funny to me what kind of things even the "conservatives" in this country will accept nowadays, so heck you never know. But I have to laugh about "dirty" and "touches inappropriately" or "calls dirty names"...like sure, I wish that porn did a better job of portraying the kind of sex that most women might actually enjoy because guys learn some STUPID things from porn, but it's hardly "inappropriate" when it's the entire point. And I don't really think of consensual sexual activity as "dirty" though I understand that in our Puritan descended culture many do.

It feels so odd to be defending it or at least defending those who consensually create the content, when I am not at all a fan of watching it, nor do I feel entirely comfortable with my partners doing so... But I have that streak of liberty-mindedness that says that consenting adults should be able to do what they want and people shouldn't make assumptions and judgments about it if it's not harming us. There are plenty of things I am not personally into, but I defend the freedom of others to indulge in without shame if they want.

The big issue for me is the adequacy of consent. The issue that the Holly Madison brought up in the Call Me Daddy Podcast was the adequacy of Consent But the was also a theme of the Case Against the Sexual Revolution.

There is a huge difference between the theoretical iideal of consent when we talk about consent as an abstraction and the actual level of consent when we are dealing with real people. With Holly Madison, yes she agreed to pose naked to get famous and yes she agreed to live in the Playboy Mansion and you can say she is adult grown woman who should be able to do that. But she didn't fully understand what exactly that consent meant in practice. She wasn't really let out of the Mansion unless supervised and unless for what Playboy thought was good cause, so get her hair and nails done yes, but just hanging around with her friends no. When E started filming her for the E show, she wasn't signing being given a contract to be reviewed by her attorney and agent because Playboy was representing her interests and they didn't want to pay her her well for the show. There was a lot of pressure to hurry up and sign some papers she didn't read and didn't understand and keep her mouth shut.

With pornstars in general, you have the dual representation problem where theoretically her agent should be looking after her best interests, but most women in porn might do just one or two movies and then decide this isn't for them, but her agent needs to get ongoing referals from the porn companies to get a steady supply of work for all of his talent, so he might decide his relationship with the porn studio is more important than the relationship with the women he represents, so if she arrives on set and they want to choke her, does the agent back his client or say we signed a contract you have to do this? What has she really consented to here?

So that is why I am not so enamored with saying its all consentual. Is it really? Do you think a porn agent took the job because he likes women and really wants to protect them or because he too wants to bang pornstars himself and found this job as his ticket to get into the industry? How often do you think the porn agent here really just another pimp?

With women who are in porn, what are the realistic options afterwards? This is not really a career you can ever fully leave behind. This is the problem I see with all sex work. But knowing that you don't have many great career options outside of porn, if you are being mistreated in porn, how effectively can you speak out against abuse/misconduct? If you publically complain about one porn company, do all of the other companies blackball you for making the industry look bad? That is the other reason I am skeptical about just how consentual the porn industry is in practice.

Holly Madison was on national television and she still felt she couldn't speak up. If she can't what makes you think less famous pornstars can doing more explicit sex can speak out?

Originally Posted by oh-eve

If I remember correctly, Drew Barrymore said in an interview that she was an alcoholic by the age of 12 and a drug addict at 13, going to rehab after hanging around the Playboy mansion. Lots of pretty girls were there and creepy old men, coked out and having sex with the girls who were hoping it pays off for them.

Hollywood attracts narcissists in general and they prey upon vulnerable people sexually. Do you think that is going to be the same or worse in porn?

[AfriqueNY]

Originally Posted by zentropa

Men have porn so they can get off in some pale facsimile of being with a real woman. Which is why I never feel threatened by porn.

Women have toys so they can get off in a way that real men can rarely consistently do for them. If I was a man, that would bother me.


Vive la différence

It does. Lol

[Rocko20]

Originally Posted by zentropa

Men have porn so they can get off in some pale facsimile of being with a real woman.

Correct. Men do keep/store porn as a phycological effect of having a woman willing to please them in bed. Which is why women should just give up if they think they can stop men from watching it. Granted, I have dated women who were ok with both of us watching it.

[Sonic_Spork]

I've never expected that I could stop a man from watching porn, nor did I ever feel entitled to expect such a thing. Doesn't change the fact that I have feelings and concerns about it. I guess another area where I differ somewhat from some in the thread is that I DO want to talk to my partners about these things.

No, I neither need nor want to know exactly what kind of porn he watches (if I thought we could enjoy it together, that might be different...I do know women who like doing so, but as I've mentioned, I can't get into it.) I think I am more comfortable not knowing those details. But I don't want him to feel shameful about it, don't want him to think he's got to hide the fact that he does enjoy it, and I do want him to be aware that I have some feelings and concerns about it. However, one facet of my marriage is that he and I both help one another to process our emotions and thoughts. We are both very good at seeing a discomfort as not necessarily, "You are making this my problem and expecting me to change my behaviors to fix it for you"...nor is it an accusation of any kind of wrongdoing. No, but we can talk and explore what these discomforts are really about, where they come from. And if either of us could use some loving reassurance or affirmation to keep us feeling connected and secure, either of us will always be there to provide that.

I don't believe that every little discomfort I have is cause to try and push him around and demand things of him. He doesn't feel that way, either. I've told my husband about my other concerns that are more rational regarding the subject, and he can feel free to consider them and take them under advisement or not. That's his business.

But I guess...again, from an emotional place...if we insist that it is a pale facsimile of sex with a real woman and nowhere near as good as the real thing, I would ponder... If a woman told her guy, "I can't happily or comfortably be with you knowing that you do this. So I'm sorry, but if you insist on watching porn, I'm going to have to leave." If a man had to choose, I think most would be like, "OK, bye I guess." I get the sense that men can give up their girlfriends but porn is non-negotiable for most who enjoy it. The only way to win is to not compete at all, I figure, and I'm not at all sure that men actually prefer the real thing. If only because it is not available 24/7 on demand, ready to indulge any taboo or act or craving with a click of a mouse. I don't hear much about men getting so used to real sex that they can't enjoy porn, but I damn sure have heard of the opposite. So are you sure that the real thing is "better?"

[MKTwet]

Originally Posted by chiluvr1228

My now "ex" couldn't perform without taking a Viagra AND watching porn before we had sex. Talk about screwing with your self esteem. Once I found that out it was the beginning of the end. Granted he was older but I have a feeling he traded one addiction (alcohol) for another (porn.)

This is a psychological problem. He needs to see a psychologist because most porn features seeing other people engage in sex and he is likely developed this mental reward system where he only gets aroused to watching others engage in sex. He needs to fix that or change his choice of porn.

I certainly don't need viagra or porn to perform but watching porn for me is a bit of fantasy and relaxation.

Originally Posted by RamenAddict

I can see where you are coming from. I had those thoughts when I was living Japan and the porn there was… different, to say the least. But the reality of what I see from American men is that they get to the point where they don’t have realistic expectations anymore of what real human women are like. I knew one guy who would just go on about how every woman was ugly in some way or another, even women who were generally quite attractive. I wondered what he was looking at online to make this decision- likely not women who were the way they were naturally.

Japanese AV mostly features very young girls which causes Japanese men to be more attracted to the younger types. Japanese actresses mostly retire by 24 unless they can handle the amount of abuse they have to go through with older actresses. But then again, Japanese industry is very different than US. That's why too many men in Japan who watches AV are fixated on the younger or school girl types. I think the problem with American AV is that there are too many fetishes and particular choices that is difficult for some men to reproduce this type of intimacy in real life with their partner.

My fantasy or choices can be particular but I don't intend to watch them thoroughly as a fetish more of a quick escape and something that can get your interest away from stress. My partner has a pretty hot body, she just wants to know who I'm comparing her with and I told her I don't watch porn often it's just a way of relaxing and seeing something different. Men are more about optics where as women are into the emotional connections.

Originally Posted by Rocko20

Correct. Men do keep/store porn as a phycological effect of having a woman willing to please them in bed. Which is why women should just give up if they think they can stop men from watching it. Granted, I have dated women who were ok with both of us watching it.

I think it's generally not a good idea to show women because they just always compare themselves or try to understand the thought process.