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I think that is what it may boil down to. She may be sensitive because she works full time, wasn't able to or simply didn't want to stay home with her children, perhaps some have discussed with her that she maybe should have stayed home or something to that effect, and thus in order to feel better about her choice or the situation she was placed in, she attempts to trivilize daycare's and sitters, etc.
Oh the learn but what do they learn? How to talk, use the potty, their ABC's? Pretty basic stuff that doesn't require a particular person to be there. Just someone competent. Now, my 13 year old, she's another story. She needs people who are invested in her who know her and who care about her.
Could you please post links supporting that character traits not learned before 5 are tougher to learn later? I've read that if a child doesn't learn to talk by 5 they won't be able to but never that they have trouble developing character after 5. Character is far from completely developed by 5. In fact, I want to say it's just really starting around that age (but that's just what I think I recall from psychology and I'm not sure of my memory these days ).
Children before age 5 learn far more than just their ABC's and how to use a potty. For crying out loud, you can't be so hell bent on trying to prove your point that you don't care how ignorant you sound. And you accuse me of going to extremes. Sheesh.
I've already stated things (character things) kids begin learning early on. For your benefit, I'll repeat myself yet one more time. They learn some very important character traits as well. They learn to respect, how to obey and follow rules, they learn about authority, how to share with others, how to get along with others, about honesty and how it's wrong to lie, accountability and admitting to something they did, how to use a nice voice when speaking rather than being mean and bullying, how to control their temper when they are upset, how to be polite and use words like please and thank you. They learn responsibility through small chores like picking up their toys, cleaning their room and making their beds. They learn about family and cooperation through small things like helping set the table, helping fold and put away laundry, feeding a family pet. They can learn about empathy and compassion towards others as with the examples I gave with my own children and the homeless. The list goes on and on.
Do not pretend to believe that I will buy into this erroneous notion you have that children before age 5 do not learn anything but 1,2,3's, their A,B,C's and how to use a potty. If that is all a parent or a caregiver is teaching a child by the age of 5, they are doing that child a great disservice.
I'll see if I have time and desire to find some links. However, I have given my argument of the very logical, very true, character traits that children begin learning early on. Things than any reasonable and logical person understands to be true. How about you provide me with some proof that I am wrong and that children between 0-5 learn none of these things, but rather learn nothing more than how to count and recite their alphabet.
By 5, a child's character is far from just beginning or developing. Sorry, by age 5, a child's character and what their parents and caregivers failed to show them as far as character just becomes very obvious when they begin school and have to start dealing with other things such as authority, rules, proper behavior and working with others.
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Character flaws can manifest early but they can easily be genetic not environmental. For example weak empathy runs in my husband's family. So, it's no surprise that one of our daughters has empathy issues. One might, mistakenly, say that she didn't develop empathy in time and now struggles when it's the other way around. She didn't develop it on time because she struggles with empathy. It's a genetic predisposition.
Yes, character flaws can be genetic BUT they can also be environmental. Learned behavior. A child that watches his father beat up his mother can learn the behavior of violence to settle disagreements. A girl that watches a mother constantly being put down by a father and treated as a second class citizen, can learn to be very shy and reserved, introverted if you will. Children who are told between the ages of 0-5 "you're stupid" can develop extremely low self-esteem and behavioral problems. And please, do not pretend to tell me that I am going to extremes here and this is rare, just check out your local, city, nationwide social services department and you tell me how rare these occurences are. Children between 0-5 are like sponges and they learn from everything and everyone around them. They can learn good things that helps shape their good character, or they can learn bad things that helps create in them a bad character. But they do learn even at such ages.
Perhaps your daughter simply didn't learn empathy early on, not so much because it was genetic and nothing could be done to change it, but rather because based on your admittance such things can't be learned early on, young children learn nothing but to count and say their alphabets and thus, based on such belief, she was never truly taught how to have empathy for others. Not saying this is what it IS, just applying your own theology to the situation.
If you look back on her posts, she just loves to argue with people in general....You say black, I say white type of situation. She wants someone to just agree with her. Always always always on the attack mode.
Definately a thread killer.
What children learn early on is pretty basic. It's a lot but basic. It's really quite phenominal that a child can learn to control a finger with their brain when you think about it. And speech is amazing. However, what is necessary for learning what they need to learn is simply a proper environment.
How do I belittle the job of a SAHM? It's the same job working moms do when home. A parent is a parent working or not. I don't see a need for staying home. I don't think it accomplishes anything special. I don't think being a working mom accomplishes anything special either. Our working status while parenting is pretty transparent. Kids just don't turn out differently based on moms working status. So it's irrelevent as far a they are concerned.
My personal preference is to use the extra time we now have because they took the work out of staying home to do other things. For me, there isn't enough at home to fill the day in a meaningful way and since I know that, especially early on, it really doesn't matter who provides care for my kids as long as the care is good, I choose to contribute my paid labors as well as parent.
I never said that a parent ceases being a parent simply because they work outside the home. However, I have to disagree with the your whole idea that kids somehow do not just turn out differently based on parental work status. NOW, I want to make it clear, yet again, that I do not put down or judge situations where both parents either need to or choose to work outside the home, however, many have been the claims by professionals that part of the huge problem that we see in youth today is the absence of parents being at home and a direct influence on a society that has forced both parents to work outside the home and thus allowing the children to become "latch-key kids" who have too much free and unsupervised time on their hands and wind up raising themselves.
While I agree that parents who work can still come home after a day at work and be parents, I totally disagree that the work of staying home has been eliminated and therefore it is meaningless time to stay at home. While a parent that works outside the house has to arrive home and in a matter of a few hours before the childs bedtime, attempt to fit in preparing meals, helping with homework, paying bills, picking up around the house, clearing and doing dishes and pots, and at times based on age and involvement of the children, run to children's activities, and manage to find time to spend with the kids just playing, interacting or whatnot, the stay at home parent is afforded far more time to do all the household chores and meal preparations throughout the day and still have plenty of time to spend with the children.
No, we that stay at home do not often sit around and do nothing but watch soap opera's and fill our mouths with bom boms out of sheer boredom and the lack of things to do. My day is quite busy with a household of 7. I am a full time student (online classes), full time mother of 5 children ranging from 4-19, full time homemaker, and full time wife. My job is creating a home for my family and I take pride in the work that I do and accomplish each and every day.
I don't believe that it is so "irrelevant" to a child whether their parent stayed at home or worked outside. I know from hearing from my own kids who are now 16 and 19, that they are very grateful that I was at home and not out working. I've been told such by them. They have friends who had both parents working outside the home and their friends would tell them that they were lucky that I was at home.
I never missed an activity of theirs because I couldn't take the time off from work. I volunteered at their school on several days. I went with them on field trips. Attended every play, every award ceremony, everything. I drove them to school each and every day, until my son began to drive himself, as well as picked them up from school. They were never forced to stay at school if they developed an illness that had them feeling horrible, because I was home to pick them up. They never had to stay home alone or with a sitter or anything because they were sick and I had to go to work. They never came home to an empty house or had to go somewhere else other than home once school let out because they had to wait for mom or dad to pick them up.
There are a lot of benefits to the child when a parent can and chooses to stay home. It is not irrelevant to the child. Sorry.
Kinda weird that this thread is in the relationships forum but anyway....
A few years ago we had our two oldest kids enrolled in a child care center. The older of the two was driven directly to school by me and was picked up by the day care center in the afternoon by her mom. She spent a total of ~2 1/2 hrs there every day until we were able to pick her up.
The younger one was dropped off at 7:30 and picked up at 5:30. Naptime was usually 2 hrs in the afternoon. For the young kids from newborn through pre-school it's the hardest because a majority of their concious time is spent with someone other than their parents. But, one thing you can't take away from them is the social interaction they get from being with other kids their own age. There is a valuable lesson to be learned there that would normally not be learned at home with mommy alone.
But for the school aged kids the time spent at daycare is relatively small. 2...3 hrs per day at most? School aged kids have to go to school every day regardless of what we as parents say.....that is unless they are homeschooled. So they are going to spend 7+ hrs a day away from home. So do we then say that the school system is raising our children? I don't think so.
I've heard many derogatory remarks from people about how daycare was raising my kids when we had them enrolled. I do not appriciate it at all. My wife and I, as loving parents, worked our tails off to provide our kids a decent living. My mother and father before me did the same thing. What it taught me was that if you're going to make it anywhere in this world you're going to have to work for it. I hope my kids learn the same lesson. I asked my father once why he worked so hard every day. He only said, "I have to keep you running the court in Nike's don't I?"
Kinda weird that this thread is in the relationships forum but anyway....
A few years ago we had our two oldest kids enrolled in a child care center. The older of the two was driven directly to school by me and was picked up by the day care center in the afternoon by her mom. She spent a total of ~2 1/2 hrs there every day until we were able to pick her up.
The younger one was dropped off at 7:30 and picked up at 5:30. Naptime was usually 2 hrs in the afternoon. For the young kids from newborn through pre-school it's the hardest because a majority of their concious time is spent with someone other than their parents. But, one thing you can't take away from them is the social interaction they get from being with other kids their own age. There is a valuable lesson to be learned there that would normally not be learned at home with mommy alone.
But for the school aged kids the time spent at daycare is relatively small. 2...3 hrs per day at most? School aged kids have to go to school every day regardless of what we as parents say.....that is unless they are homeschooled. So they are going to spend 7+ hrs a day away from home. So do we then say that the school system is raising our children? I don't think so.
I've heard many derogatory remarks from people about how daycare was raising my kids when we had them enrolled. I do not appriciate it at all. My wife and I, as loving parents, worked our tails off to provide our kids a decent living. My mother and father before me did the same thing. What it taught me was that if you're going to make it anywhere in this world you're going to have to work for it. I hope my kids learn the same lesson. I asked my father once why he worked so hard every day. He only said, "I have to keep you running the court in Nike's don't I?"
I don't think anyone in this thread is really trying to imply that if working parents place their child/children in daycare, that the daycare alone is raising the children. I am sorry that ignorant people accused you and your wife of such. What I do believe that I and some others have been arguing here is that the caregivers in daycare have such a menial task that whatever impact and influence they have in the raising of the children is trivial and irrelevant.
Sure, ultimately it was the parents that choose the daycare, but in doing so, hopefully they chose a daycare that would align with their beliefs and how they want their children raised. In doing so, the daycare therefore too is raising the child, not solely but alongside with the parents. It is a combined effort. It is also not a choice that was granted in the poll on this thread.
There is no way that anyone can say that the parents alone are raising the children when the children are spending substantial time away from their children. Those that provide the childcare do in fact have a role and are active participants in the raising of the child. They teach those children certain things in the absence of the parent. Even if it is simply that you don't hit another child and you learn how to share that toy. There is character building that takes place during those hours that the parents are at work. To say otherwise is totally disrespectful to the work, effort, investment, love and care these caregivers give our children.
I, personally, will never say that because a parent has to work they are therefore not raising their children. I believe there are many excellent parents that work part or full time and still come home and invest in the lives of their children, actively raising them to become productive adults in the future. I, however, also personally believe that there are parents with poor parenting skills, both that work outside the home and that stay home, that fail to raise their children in a proper fashion because their interests and time investment is spent on less important factors, they are overwhelmed with other things or they lack the desire, interest, understanding of its importance and energy to do so.
I also believe there are great benefits for a child both when they go to daycare, and when they are afforded to remain home with one parent. The benefits are just different from one situation to the other depending on the situation and the environment around the child.
Good parents are going to be good parents whether they work and put their children in daycare or whether they stay home. And bad parents are going to be bad parents whether they work and put their children in daycare or stay home.
Kids can thrive at home or in daycare as long as they're cared for by loving people who understand them and put their interests first.
Good parents are going to be good parents whether they work and put their children in daycare or whether they stay home. And bad parents are going to be bad parents whether they work and put their children in daycare or stay home.
Kids can thrive at home or in daycare as long as they're cared for by loving people who understand them and put their interests first.
Exactly. Therefore, the bottom line is that the raising of that child is not done in isolation. Therefore, to disregard others that took active roles in the raising of the children by saying (or giving the only options that) only the parent raises the children because daycare/school or whatever has no influence or impact, or only the daycare raises the children because both parents were absent x amount of hours due to employment, or that no one at all raises the child but the child raised themselves, is simply erroneous.
The OP however wants us to all agree that no one other than the parent raises the child/children and that all others are just inconsequential and temporary people in the child/childrens lives and are easily forgotten with little to no influence on the child's life or how they were raised.
I simply can not do that, nor claim that. I believe that every person that has had an influence on my child, that has touch their lives and taught them something, has in fact taken part in the raising of my children. I know I personally have a lot of people to thank for the influence they have held in the lives of my children. I simply can not disregard what they have done and invested in them and solely take credit for every single thing, good or bad. Yes, the larger credit may go to the parents, however, give credit where credit is due.
Exactly. Therefore, the bottom line is that the raising of that child is not done in isolation. Therefore, to disregard others that took active roles in the raising of the children by saying (or giving the only options that) only the parent raises the children because daycare/school or whatever has no influence or impact, or only the daycare raises the children because both parents were absent x amount of hours due to employment, or that no one at all raises the child but the child raised themselves, is simply erroneous.
The OP however wants us to all agree that no one other than the parent raises the child/children and that all others are just inconsequential and temporary people in the child/childrens lives and are easily forgotten with little to no influence on the child's life or how they were raised.
I simply can not do that, nor claim that. I believe that every person that has had an influence on my child, that has touch their lives and taught them something, has in fact taken part in the raising of my children. I know I personally have a lot of people to thank for the influence they have held in the lives of my children. I simply can not disregard what they have done and invested in them and solely take credit for every single thing, good or bad. Yes, the larger credit may go to the parents, however, give credit where credit is due.
I agree with you. I think the OP takes offense (as do I) when SAHP's make comments about how working just parents "drop their kids off for someone else to raise" because we working parents know that despite the fact that our kids are in daycare, we are still their parents, still love them unceasingly, play with them, teach them, discipline them and make decisions about their care.
This is not to say that daycare workers do not have an influence on our kids--they do. A kind, loving daycare worker is a tremendous positive influence and a lazy, unresponsive, or God forbid, mean caregiver would be a very negative influence. But when it's all said and done, parents are still raising their kids, whether they work inside or outside the home.
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