Is Infedility Not That Big a Deal Anymore? (cheats, husband, family)

[cremebrulee]

I to am tired of hearing about Hilton...if she is an example of what kids look up to as a role model, that is scary...she's not very bright...she's gotton by all her life on daddy's money, and she needs to go to college or something to gain more insight into the real world...but that's just my opinion....

You should care, b/c it's your future you ignoring...when someone cheats, they are not trustworthy...and in most cases, not all, when they do cheat, it's the first time they've gotten caught, but not the first or last time, they will cheat. Clinton was brilliant...a road scholar...and not many people in the word can say that....he got us out of debt...didn't care for the man at all or his wife Hillary, b/c they are so liberal...I don't care for the Republican party either....but that's another thread...point being...anyone, be him President, or the guy down the street, or the woman running a company....or your husband, or wife....anyone who cheats is not trustworthy...there are a whole lotta reasons why they cheat, not just one...but, it is not acceptable behavior...it is not, a person who values the feelings of others....it is though, someone who possesses greater value on his/her own selfish feelings, never considering the effects of that hurt upon his entire family, including his/her mother or father, grand parents...it embarresses them...hurts them beyond belief...can you just imagine what Clinton's daughter went thru...a person who cheats...causes great pain to others because they are to selfish and driven by desire rather then good common sense and morals....and THAT is someone who should NOT be a leader...because if your leaders are corrupt, so to, will be your people. When you look back thru history...when did every great nation fall? When they were immoral and corrupt and cared only for themselves...greed...lust for power, money,a nd sex. I don't want a weak man like that in leadership....yes, he did some good things for this country...but he also did some very bad things....

and by you saying your sick and tired of hearing it...yeah, we all are...but quit frankly, there have got to be people who do listen, who reasearch for themselves...who become involved and listen, and not turn their heads and say...ohhhhhh, I can't listen to the news, it's horrible...yeah, it is horrible...and why, b/c way to many people do turn their heads and not become involved....and that is how our politicians and liberal thinking has ruined this country...because we place ourselves in this invisible plastic bubble, our own little privet worlds, while out there horrible things are going on, but we, prefer to ignore it...and when we ignore it, we say...it's acceptable....and a great many things going on in this country is not acceptable....and we only have ourselves to blame for it. There is no reason, on God's green earth, that politicians should be getting away with this stuff.

When was the last time you heard of anyone getting fired for doing something wrong on the job? They don't....they are asked to hand in their resignation and are given a great amount of our money for the rest of their lives...that is ludicrist...simply ludicrist...these men have set a presidence for America...what ever happened to the fear and consequences of not doing a good job, which keeps people on their toes, keeps them in line and results in a more consciencious worker, who realizes he will not be rewarded for bad behavior...?

Not listening my friend, and turning it all off, is not a good thing...it ignores the exisiting problem, and allows those who do listen who do not possess good commone sense and a value for morals...to lead, and take over. A very dangerous thing...and what is happening, right now, in the world outside of yours.

It is not a private matter when you become a public figure. Unfortunately, society needs leaders, and unfortunately, we grow more and more tollerant of indecent behavior. Of crime...and it is a crime to go against moral beliefs and hurt others....and when you have so many men in leadership it becomes a disease....if you make laws your abiding factor...you do away with crime...and when you do away with crime, you do away with more and more immoral behavior...you instill laws, that are to be respected...people become more educated to the fact that it takes team work and effort to accomplish...together...laws are laws....be it infidelity, or stealing from your company. If we say, infidelity is none of our business and ignore it, then we say it's ok to do that, which sets off a trickle down effect....and says, hey, it's ok to do that...pretty soon, other laws are broken...like so so many people in the corporate world today who work from home, and only actually work, 2 hours. They are stealing from the company...but b/c everyone else does it, it's ok...why do you think companies are going broke....everything against the moral fiber of America has to be accounted for...because what a person does, when they go against the moral fibers is, effect everyone else's life in a negative way...what you do, think and feel, effects others...and it starts this whole chain reaction of events...to the lives of others...and it's very very important, to understand, humans are driven by greed and lust for power, money and sex. Rules, which may not always seem fair, are there for a reason....be it moral rules, or law abiding rules, or rules in your place of work, even right down to rules in your home....if you don't have rules in your home, your child will believe it's ok to do what he/she wants...now, he/she goes out into the world and becomes a person who doesn't respect laws....or a moral code...therefore, he thinks, he's entitled to think, feel and act as he pleases, cuz no one told him it wasn't ok. He starts effecting the lives of others in very small ways...but then, he gets angry and picks up a gun and kills another kid...b/c the other kid disagreed with him....he thought it was ok to do that...now, it's not just his life which will be effected for the rest of his life, but the lives of so so many other people...and that one act...will trigger off a chain of events in the lives of all who knew the dead boy...it will change their lives in a very negative way forever...and it will never be taken back. That is a hard core example of how tollerance to behavior that is unacceptable triggers a whole new way of life for hundreds of thousands of people. It says, anything goes...and when you become a leader, you become a role model for many people, for children, children who are teenagers...it says a lot to them, about how acceptable his behavior was....there are women who still go google eyed over Clinton...because they think he's so handsome... and they are way to veiled to even understand, the harm that man bought down on his child...his wife...and quit personally, I think the man was a very weak soul...to care more about himself then his entire family...for what...for a roll in the sack, b/c he didn't have enough maturity to even care about the consequences of his actions...that to me, could be a very dangerous leader...and speaks volumns on the mentality of America who voted him in...because when he cheated, he left down not just his family, but all those who trusted him and voted him in, as President of the United States.

You have said a mouthful of truth here...and unfortunately, life isn't always fair...people do make mistakes, and gossip way to much, and the media has set that presidence...so has soap operas...television can be a very useful entertaining tool...but it also has the ability to brain wash people into believing that the actors on that screen are conducting acceptable behavior.

because people condone cheating...doesn't make it right, and your statement, just goes to prove everything I have written above. You see, what's happening, is, by approving this behavior, we are becoming a country who says, it's ok....Hillary, stayed with a weak man like that...for many reasons, not just one...but I think, if she'd have left him, and believe me, she didn't need his financial help...but if she would have left, I believe more people would have admired her and voted for her...by not leaving, she says, his behavior is acceptable...and believe me, Hilliary is a very strong and powerful woman...apparently it is a known fact, that when your in politics....no matter what the spouse does, it is unacceptable to leave...look at how great everyone believes Kennedy was...and yet, his wife Jackie went thru Hell and back with him...hurt beyond words, but only stayed there b/c she was advised to do so...b/c leaving him would have hurt his career...which completely ignores moral fibers and says to the public, well, yeah, he cheated...but that's ok...and it starts a breakdown of moral fibers, which are very substantial to guiding Americans....it begins a slow process and contaminates the minds of people who look up to those people...because Hillary stayed...cheating becomes more and more acceptable...hence, open marriages, gays, tollerance to a whole lot of other things, like crime...child molestations...we become disconnected and don't care anymore...and believe me, it happens...I've seen it happen in my lifetime...things were much better when I was younger...government didn't have nearly as much control....rules were strict, parents were strict...you went to work, you did your job or you were fired, period....now, anything goes...and our country has become chaotic, not to mention, there are way to many people in leadership who shouldn't be there...why, because of tollerance to breaking the rules, all in the name of diversity, inficelity, and a breakdown of moral fibers....45 years of it...slowly, chipping away at the soul of society...until we become immoral and corrupt. We Will suffer the consequences...b/c these attitudes are speading through America like a disase...and eroding what was right, into wrongs....

I hope I've shed some light and you don't take my disagreement with you as a personal attack...but more so, maybe you'll see some truth in my words...I hope so...if not, we go forward...no insult intended by simply disagreeing.

Creme

[mari4him]

I do believe America is desensitized when it comes to cheating and the affects it has on the family and society in general. However, I disagree that a politician's wife, who chooses to stay with her husband, is a sign of weakness or because of the pull they can receive from their spouse.

Many women, who are not politician's wives, choose to forgive and stay in their marriages after an infidelity occurs. Their reasons are their own and sometimes carry nothing behind if as far as a pull they can receive.

I disagree that Hilary staying with Clinton was a sign of weakness, I think it took great character to go against what society would have expected her to do and stand by her marriage. I think she does rather well for herself and don't think she needs Clinton at all to be honest. Yet even years after he is no longer president, they remain together. Granted, we have no idea what goes on truly behind those closed doors, but the point is she could leave him at anytime and stand on her own two feet. She has a name of her own and doesn't need him to carry her at all. She stays because she wants to. Period.

Same with Jacqueline Kennedy. Long after her husband was gone, she was a woman in her own right. She made a name for herself and carried it until the day she died. Yet she did stand by her husband through all his issues for whatever reasons at that time. As someone stated, it was more about not hurting his career than it was about helping her own.

I personally think that the politicians and the celebrities are merely out there, exposed to the media's camera's but in all reality, are a reflection of much of what goes on in our society in general. Everyday there are husbands who are cheating on their wives, wives that are cheating on their husbands, they just don't make headline news or the front page of the newspaper. Most of them are afforded the ability to cheat in private away from the public scrutiny and eye. I don't think they are much different than perhaps our neighbor three houses down.

Sadly, infidelity is just way too common and I do believe it is often treated with a slap on the wrist. That being said. If a wife, or a husband, chooses to forgive their spouse for their infidelity, that is a private matter between the two of them and something they need to work out for themselves. We don't live in anyone elses house but our own, so what exactly goes on behind those doors is really unknown to us. Some spouses will immediately kick the other out under such circumstances, that is their personal choice, not a sign of weekness or strength in my opinion, just a personal conviction that they choose to act out on. Some spouses, on the contrary, choose to stick it out and try to forgive and work through it, again, not a sign of weakness or strength, just a personal conviction that they too choose to act out on.

In my opinion, having been cheated on before and doing the forgiveness thing, I think the easiest thing is to kick them out and move forward in life, the difficult thing is staying in the relationship, finding the ability to forgive and move forward, trying to overcome the hurt, the betrayal, and trying to rebuild from there. That speaks a lot to me about a person's character and how they take their vows of for better or for worse, in good times and bad, easy or hard. Just because one spouse broke the vow with regards to forsaking all others, doesn't mean that two wrongs always make a right by the other now breaking the vows by not trying to make it work.

There have been relationships where one spouse has cheated, they have stayed together and it has worked out and the cheating has not occured again. A lesson learned I guess you can say. There have also been relationships where this is not the case and either they have not stayed together or they have and the cheating has continued. I just think that it is a very personal decision, with no right or wrong answer to it. The only right answer is whatever is right for the two people involved. They are the one's that have to live with the decision, and of course, any children that may be the innocent bystanders in the whole mix.

Personally, I do see infidelity as a big deal. I'm just not going to judge the spouse who was cheated on as being strong or weak in character for how they choose to handle the situation once it has occured in their marriage. It is way too personal a decision.

[SanAntoQT]

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

well that's you and you have every right to your opinion, just as we all do...

if we continue to feel like you do in this country...then it becomes more and more acceptable...and we become desensitized to it...ignoring it...almost like saying...hey, it's ok, it's your life, do as you please...it's not acceptable...in the majority of society's eyes...
...

Whoa, creme! No need to get your knickers in knot! I'm trying to understand how anyone can presume to know what goes on within a marriage that the rest of the world doesn't see. That.is.all.

Originally Posted by mari4him

However, I disagree that a politician's wife, who chooses to stay with her husband, is a sign of weakness or because of the pull they can receive from their spouse.

Many women, who are not politician's wives, choose to forgive and stay in their marriages after an infidelity occurs. Their reasons are their own and sometimes carry nothing behind if as far as a pull they can receive.

I disagree that Hilary staying with Clinton was a sign of weakness, I think it took great character to go against what society would have expected her to do and stand by her marriage. I think she does rather well for herself and don't think she needs Clinton at all to be honest. Yet even years after he is no longer president, they remain together. Granted, we have no idea what goes on truly behind those closed doors, but the point is she could leave him at anytime and stand on her own two feet. She has a name of her own and doesn't need him to carry her at all. She stays because she wants to. Period.

Same with Jacqueline Kennedy. Long after her husband was gone, she was a woman in her own right. She made a name for herself and carried it until the day she died. Yet she did stand by her husband through all his issues for whatever reasons at that time. As someone stated, it was more about not hurting his career than it was about helping her own.

I personally think that the politicians and the celebrities are merely out there, exposed to the media's camera's but in all reality, are a reflection of much of what goes on in our society in general. Everyday there are husbands who are cheating on their wives, wives that are cheating on their husbands, they just don't make headline news or the front page of the newspaper. Most of them are afforded the ability to cheat in private away from the public scrutiny and eye. I don't think they are much different than perhaps our neighbor three houses down.

Sadly, infidelity is just way too common and I do believe it is often treated with a slap on the wrist. That being said. If a wife, or a husband, chooses to forgive their spouse for their infidelity, that is a private matter between the two of them and something they need to work out for themselves. We don't live in anyone elses house but our own, so what exactly goes on behind those doors is really unknown to us. Some spouses will immediately kick the other out under such circumstances, that is their personal choice, not a sign of weekness or strength in my opinion, just a personal conviction that they choose to act out on. Some spouses, on the contrary, choose to stick it out and try to forgive and work through it, again, not a sign of weakness or strength, just a personal conviction that they too choose to act out on.

In my opinion, having been cheated on before and doing the forgiveness thing, I think the easiest thing is to kick them out and move forward in life, the difficult thing is staying in the relationship, finding the ability to forgive and move forward, trying to overcome the hurt, the betrayal, and trying to rebuild from there. That speaks a lot to me about a person's character and how they take their vows of for better or for worse, in good times and bad, easy or hard. Just because one spouse broke the vow with regards to forsaking all others, doesn't mean that two wrongs always make a right by the other now breaking the vows by not trying to make it work.

There have been relationships where one spouse has cheated, they have stayed together and it has worked out and the cheating has not occured again. A lesson learned I guess you can say. There have also been relationships where this is not the case and either they have not stayed together or they have and the cheating has continued. I just think that it is a very personal decision, with no right or wrong answer to it. The only right answer is whatever is right for the two people involved. They are the one's that have to live with the decision, and of course, any children that may be the innocent bystanders in the whole mix.

Personally, I do see infidelity as a big deal. I'm just not going to judge the spouse who was cheated on as being strong or weak in character for how they choose to handle the situation once it has occured in their marriage. It is way too personal a decision.

This is exactly what I'm saying, mari4him. While I wouldn't put up with it, I don't fault anyone else who is willing to forgive and move on. Maybe those of us who would give up on a marriage for such indiscretion are the weak ones because we choose not to expose ourselves to humiliation (in some case, public humiliation) or just have no desire to work things out. Who knows? For me, it's just easier to leave.

[cremebrulee]

[quote=mari4him;4827094]

I do believe America is desensitized when it comes to cheating and the affects it has on the family and society in general. However, I disagree that a politician's wife, who chooses to stay with her husband, is a sign of weakness or because of the pull they can receive from their spouse.

I think this is a marvelous post...and you may be right, but there are many reasons why people do things, never one reason.

Many women, who are not politician's wives, choose to forgive and stay in their marriages after an infidelity occurs. Their reasons are their own and sometimes carry nothing behind if as far as a pull they can receive.

you may be right, but I believe there is a great amount of pressure, especially in Mrs. Kennedy's time....as women were expected to do as they were told...

I disagree that Hilary staying with Clinton was a sign of weakness, I think it took great character to go against what society would have expected her to do and stand by her marriage. I think she does rather well for herself and don't think she needs Clinton at all to be honest. Yet even years after he is no longer president, they remain together. Granted, we have no idea what goes on truly behind those closed doors, but the point is she could leave him at anytime and stand on her own two feet. She has a name of her own and doesn't need him to carry her at all. She stays because she wants to. Period.

yes, but do you think maybe there might be a status effect considering they are leaders...and lets face it...way back when, she knew she wasn't done yet....maybe she feared leaving him would harm her potential....but I can see your point of view...I can be so cut and dry sometimes....

I personally think that the politicians and the celebrities are merely out there, exposed to the media's camera's but in all reality, are a reflection of much of what goes on in our society in general. Everyday there are husbands who are cheating on their wives, wives that are cheating on their husbands, they just don't make headline news or the front page of the newspaper. Most of them are afforded the ability to cheat in private away from the public scrutiny and eye. I don't think they are much different than perhaps our neighbor three houses down.

right again...but...when your out there...like it or not, your life is no longer yours, sad, but true...therefore, you have to assume even more responsiblity for your actions...b/c people look up to you...people for some ungodly reason, need role models to idolize, to mold themselves after...sad but true..and when you have so so many people stepping out of bounds in the lime light, you begin to set trends....beliefs, moral standards....

Sadly, infidelity is just way too common and I do believe it is often treated with a slap on the wrist. That being said. If a wife, or a husband, chooses to forgive their spouse for their infidelity, that is a private matter between the two of them and something they need to work out for themselves. We don't live in anyone elses house but our own, so what exactly goes on behind those doors is really unknown to us. Some spouses will immediately kick the other out under such circumstances, that is their personal choice, not a sign of weekness or strength in my opinion, just a personal conviction that they choose to act out on. Some spouses, on the contrary, choose to stick it out and try to forgive and work through it, again, not a sign of weakness or strength, just a personal conviction that they too choose to act out on.

yes, it is their business to do as they wish, and there is a very small percentage of one time cheaters...but on the whole, there are those who stay in a broken marriage as such, for many reasons...all bad ones...who subject themselves over and over again to the hurt of a cheater...they want to much to believe, they compromise they're moral institutions for the sake of the kids, marriage, fear of leaving, etc. And make themselves a victim...not to mention....whether they know it or not...are serving as a role model to their children, whom their children will parrot.

Just remember, whenever you make a choice, it's never just about you, but your thoughts and choices effect and reflect on so many others...so, it's not just about them and their reasons....it's also about everyone who knows them and loves them...

Same with anyone in the limelight, only now, worse. Because more people look to them as role models...especially kids....

In my opinion, having been cheated on before and doing the forgiveness thing, I think the easiest thing is to kick them out and move forward in life, the difficult thing is staying in the relationship, finding the ability to forgive and move forward, trying to overcome the hurt, the betrayal, and trying to rebuild from there. That speaks a lot to me about a person's character and how they take their vows of for better or for worse, in good times and bad, easy or hard. Just because one spouse broke the vow with regards to forsaking all others, doesn't mean that two wrongs always make a right by the other now breaking the vows by not trying to make it work.

Well, your lucky...I was cheated on to...but I had two different kind of men...who were cheaters before I met them, and are probably still cheaters....that isn't bitterness, but the truth...I tried to work it out...both times...then, thinking I didn't want to fail... it was them that failed, but they actually told me it was my fault they cheated....and believe me, there was smoke in the bedroom....

and yes, two wrongs do not make a right, but in most cases....most spouces are not as lucky as you are....I did post that there are a few spouces who cheat and it is only a one time thing.

and yes, it is much much much harder to stay then to leave....but after I left, I hurt for years....so much so, I can never be with someone again...never ever want to feel that kind of pain again....so, different strokes for different folks....

I don't like Hillary...she's a perfect example of a woman who is driven by success....she also seems to me that she has to have control....not very open to opinions and doesn't consider long term effects...she wants it yesterday...and doesn't care about the effect her idea has on so many people...she only cares about winning. I'm certain, she has some overwhelmingly good qualities, but I believe if she had left him...she would have made an awesome statement...lest we forget, her hubbies affair, wasn't the first one....and if one cannot stay true to their beliefs, true to themselves...then they sell themselves all for the wrong reasons....so, in my mind, she is weak...

There have been relationships where one spouse has cheated, they have stayed together and it has worked out and the cheating has not occured again. A lesson learned I guess you can say. There have also been relationships where this is not the case and either they have not stayed together or they have and the cheating has continued. I just think that it is a very personal decision, with no right or wrong answer to it. The only right answer is whatever is right for the two people involved. They are the one's that have to live with the decision, and of course, any children that may be the innocent bystanders in the whole mix.

Yes, but the percentage is very nill compared to those that don't. But, yes, you could be right, but it still doesn't make the act acceptable...the act itself, as you and many of us know, if very harmful to an awful lot of people and a very selfish thing to do to people.

Personally, I do see infidelity as a big deal. I'm just not going to judge the spouse who was cheated on as being strong or weak in character for how they choose to handle the situation once it has occured in their marriage. It is way too personal a decision.

yes, again, I have to say, you are right in so many ways...but when do you begin to say, enough, it's gone way to far...it's no longer acceptable behavior...it's not judging them...it's actually not liking the behavior...and it is wrong, it is called cheating...and cheating comes from a lot of bad qualities...unless that person can rehabilitate....and it has to be acknowledge as being the wrong thing to do.

[SanAntoQT]

Creme, I agree with you that cheating is not acceptable behavior, however, I believe when someone who is directly affected by it chooses to work their way through it with the offending party, it is their business, not mine nor anyone else's. This was what I was trying to point out.

[mari4him]

[quote=cremebrulee;4827804]

Originally Posted by mari4him

I think this is a marvelous post...and you may be right, but there are many reasons why people do things, never one reason.

Absolutely, agree with you 100% and it's the gist of what I was trying to say. The reasons why people do things or move beyond something are as individual as the person themselves. To try to cookie cut it into one correct reason for a response is illogical in my opinion. People are individuals and they are going to respond to a similar situation in very different ways sometimes.

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

you may be right, but I believe there is a great amount of pressure, especially in Mrs. Kennedy's time....as women were expected to do as they were told...

I agree with you that years and years ago it was more a situation of women doing, maybe not as they were told, but as they were expected to do. Everything carried a stigma with it and I do believe that in the case of Jacqueline Kennedy, she probably was told she had to stay in the marriage and so she did. However, I disagreed with that she needed to do it because she needed JFK's pull in her life. She was a strong woman on her own. She did what she did, honestly in my opinion, because she nonetheless decided to do so. If she absolutely did not want to, I don't doubt she would have left him. However, even in her staying, it was to not damage his career. I still believe that if she had left him, she still would have been able to move forward in life and make the name for herself nonethelss, perhaps even moreso for having rocked the boat and gone against what was "expected" or "told" to her to do.

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

yes, but do you think maybe there might be a status effect considering they are leaders...and lets face it...way back when, she knew she wasn't done yet....maybe she feared leaving him would harm her potential....but I can see your point of view...I can be so cut and dry sometimes....

Honestly, no I don't think so. Hilary was and is a very strong, independant and intelligent woman. While in the White House she had her own causes that she persued with all fervor. I don't think for one second she thought she "needed" to stay with him to advance. I'm leaning more to her knowing she could accomplish what she wanted with or without him. The only one's career that had the potential of being damaged was his. Not hers, in my opinion. In fact, there are many that actually believe that Hilary called a lot of the shots in the White House while Clinton was president. Those same ones believe that Clinton actually ran much of his doings by her and went with her opinion on the matter. Again, we don't know what went on behind closed doors, so any of this is mere speculation.

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

right again...but...when your out there...like it or not, your life is no longer yours, sad, but true...therefore, you have to assume even more responsiblity for your actions...b/c people look up to you...people for some ungodly reason, need role models to idolize, to mold themselves after...sad but true..and when you have so so many people stepping out of bounds in the lime light, you begin to set trends....beliefs, moral standards....

Oh I agree with you in that their life is no longer their own and they are now subject to all the public scrutiny that most of us are not. However, what I mean is that they are no different than in a lot of ways to a lot of other members of society. I do believe to a large extent they are a reflection of what goes on in society. The difference is that with them it is exposed and made headline news, while with the rest of society it often stays within closed doors or among those in the inner circle of the couple.

Honestly, these things have been going on for centuries, the only difference between then and now is all the public exposure and hype that takes place afterwards.

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

yes, it is their business to do as they wish, and there is a very small percentage of one time cheaters...but on the whole, there are those who stay in a broken marriage as such, for many reasons...all bad ones...who subject themselves over and over again to the hurt of a cheater...they want to much to believe, they compromise they're moral institutions for the sake of the kids, marriage, fear of leaving, etc. And make themselves a victim...not to mention....whether they know it or not...are serving as a role model to their children, whom their children will parrot.

Can't disagree with you on this. You are absolutely correct. Many do stay in such relationships compromising their moral beliefs and subjecting themselves over and over to hurt. Some extremist though also are not compromising their moral/religious beliefs in a sense by staying. They actually believe that cutting out and getting a divorce is far more a compromise of their beliefs. Personally, that's not me. I do hold firmly to the fact that, speaking from a religious perspective, that is the only written permission for divorce given. While yes it says that it is better to forgive, nonetheless, we are allowed to simply say nope, not doing it, you broke the vows, you cheated, we are done.

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

Just remember, whenever you make a choice, it's never just about you, but your thoughts and choices effect and reflect on so many others...so, it's not just about them and their reasons....it's also about everyone who knows them and loves them...

Same with anyone in the limelight, only now, worse. Because more people look to them as role models...especially kids....

Absolutely. Everything we do has the potential to affect another person in a positive or negative way, whether we like it or not. That is the biggest problem I have with those that determine to cheat on their spouses. They are being totally selfish and thinking only about themselves. They are not considering what their actions will do to their spouse or to their children if they have any. It is totally a selfish act.

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

Well, your lucky...I was cheated on to...but I had two different kind of men...who were cheaters before I met them, and are probably still cheaters....that isn't bitterness, but the truth...I tried to work it out...both times...then, thinking I didn't want to fail... it was them that failed, but they actually told me it was my fault they cheated....and believe me, there was smoke in the bedroom....

Just in case it was misunderstood let me clear something up. I am NOT in a relationship with this individual any longer. That relationship did come to an end. The point I was making was simply that I have been there and that yes the easiest thing would have been to dump his butt right then and there and noone would have faulted me for it. However, I didn't. I opted to try to forgive, move forward, work on the relationship and attempt to salvage it. It didn't work out in the end but it was not for lack of effort on my part. Having said that, I'll be darned if anyone tries to say that it was out of weakness that I stayed and tried to make it work. Trying to make it work and dealing with all the issues that it created in my relationship was far from easy and possibly one of the hardest things I've had to do in my life. It took a lot of strength on my part to do that when those that later found out about it wondered how in the world I managed and even never let on to what was going on. I, in fact, had many of those people telling me afterwards that they admired my strength and ability to endure what I did, knowing full well that they themselves could not possibly do it. So no, I just don't see it as a sign of weakness, some times it is very much so a sign of strength.

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

and yes, two wrongs do not make a right, but in most cases....most spouces are not as lucky as you are....I did post that there are a few spouces who cheat and it is only a one time thing.

Again, hopefully my clarification above deals with what I think this part implys, but no this relationship is not ongoing and did come to an end. I do not feel lucky at all for having gone through it, enduring any part of it. However, I do feel at peace with myself for knowing that I did try everything possible to make the relationship work and if it failed it was not because of me or my actions. There are no what if's that I live with. What if I had tried, what if I did forgive... no I covered all those basis. By the time I ended the relationship I was sure there was no rock left to turn over and that it was over for good. No going back. I don't feel lucky for it, I do feel all the wiser and stronger as a result of it though. My convictions are far stronger than they even were back then and I feel far wiser as a result as well.

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

and yes, it is much much much harder to stay then to leave....but after I left, I hurt for years....so much so, I can never be with someone again...never ever want to feel that kind of pain again....so, different strokes for different folks....

I'm sorry you feel that way but I also know that there is little than anyone can say to help you see it differently. The only thing I can tell you is that I hurt too and thought I could never trust another man again. See it has happened to me with more than one man and it is so easy to just think they are all pigs and all will do the same thing. But that is not fair to the men out there that actually do have some integrity and do know how to be faithful and true to their wife.

Personally, I refused to give any of those men the power over my future that way. Yeah they were pigs, but you know what... they would have gained far too much a victory in my life if they were able to keep me from experiencing love and intimacy again. If I had held on to that notion I would never have given my husband the time of day and I would have missed out on the best relationship that I have had. Trusting my husband is about the easiest thing I have to do. I don't regret what I have been through, it served, as I mentioned, to make me wiser. Wiser in the choice of men and in the foundation that is laid long before a serious relationship begins. As a result of my past, so much groundwork was done between my husband and I long before we became engaged. We had many discussions on this subject and were very clear on this being a deal breaker for both of us. He having experienced it as well in the reverse sense, totally understood the pain and damage that this creates in a relationship and family. Neither one of us is willing to expose ourselves or each other to it and both are adamently against such things.

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

I don't like Hillary...she's a perfect example of a woman who is driven by success....she also seems to me that she has to have control....not very open to opinions and doesn't consider long term effects...she wants it yesterday...and doesn't care about the effect her idea has on so many people...she only cares about winning. I'm certain, she has some overwhelmingly good qualities, but I believe if she had left him...she would have made an awesome statement...lest we forget, her hubbies affair, wasn't the first one....and if one cannot stay true to their beliefs, true to themselves...then they sell themselves all for the wrong reasons....so, in my mind, she is weak...

I respect your opinion and view and you are perhaps right in that she stayed for all the wrong reasons. Again though, my position is simply I am not going to sit here and judge her strength or weakness based upon what I or anyone else thinks she should have done. To those that believe she should have left him, she appears weak in character for not doing so. By the same token, to those who believe that forgiving and sticking it out was the right thing to do, she actually shows an immense strength of character for being able to. See, she in my opinion, really did not need him. Not financially, not politically, not emotionally, not in any way. She could have very easily left him and gone about her life and career and probably been in the same exact place that she is today. Unlike some women who are not in her position and are maybe financially or emotionally dependant on their spouse. However, despite her independance and her ability to very much so stand on her own two feet, she stuck it out and has continued to stick it out long after his presidency has been over. Now, again, the quality of their marriage is really only known to them and possibly those really close to them. The majority of us, have no clue. For all we know, they are perfectly happy, content, loving couple or they are totally miserable, living totally seperate and unattached lives, emotionally unavailable to one another and merely putting up a front. All we can do from the outside is speculate. However, whether she was strong or weak depends on what end of the spectrum she is being viewed from. To some she was strong, to others she was weak. To me... I claim neither because I don't know her personally to be able to do so.

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

Yes, but the percentage is very nill compared to those that don't. But, yes, you could be right, but it still doesn't make the act acceptable...the act itself, as you and many of us know, if very harmful to an awful lot of people and a very selfish thing to do to people.

Absolutely it does not make the act acceptable, it is extremely harmful and very selfish and you are absolutely right that the percentage is very small. All I was saying is that some do manage to get past this for whatever reasons they have. Others do not. Again, no cookie cutter answer to this. It is all a very personal and individual thing.

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

yes, again, I have to say, you are right in so many ways...but when do you begin to say, enough, it's gone way to far...it's no longer acceptable behavior...it's not judging them...it's actually not liking the behavior...and it is wrong, it is called cheating...and cheating comes from a lot of bad qualities...unless that person can rehabilitate....and it has to be acknowledge as being the wrong thing to do.

That point in time or life where a person says enough, its gone to far, is as unique as the person themselves. To some people the first time is enough, gone to far, for others it's the three strikes your out mentality, and yet for another it may never reach that enough point. My point of enough this has gone on way too long or way too far may be very different from yours or anyone elses.

This applies to everything in life. There are women who live with emotionally unavailable yet extremely faithful men. In the eyes of those of us that feel emotional availability is crucial, when is it enough for them. There are those who live with emotionally/verbally abusive husbands who are nonetheless extremely faithful to their spouse, to those of us who find such things intolerable, when is it enough. That point of it's enough is individual and again there is no tell tale marking for it. It is not set in stone to apply to everyone universily. Each person establishes that point for themselves and thus has to live with it, good or bad. The point is, what that mark is for me, may just not be the same for them and I should not judge them for it.

[miu]

Unless you are a swan, as animals, we are not meant to be monogamous. And I bring this up because the mothers in here will tout the wonders of motherly instincts, and many have said that it's our animal nature to want to procreate. But that said, we are human being, homo sapiens that think and have memory. And because of our thought processes, we have evolved and progresses faster than our genetic material. We look back at our history and our mistakes and learn from them. I think that because of the vast numbers of humans on this planet, in order to survive with a decent quality of life, we do need order and discipline in our lives and society. So being monogamous is a better way of living, although not entirely natural to our animal natures.

Women are nurturers and our strength is to tend the home fires and raise the children. Men are hunters and... also want to spread their seed around. In many older cultures, the most powerful or wealthy men had multiple wives, harems or concubines. In Greek and Roman mythologies, their gods were not perfect and frequently cheated on their goddess wives. I guess I see Bill Clinton as a Zeus and Hillary as more accepting Hera.

Then we have Christianity, which is the dominant religion in the US. Sex is not acceptable in the bible except for procreate. The original sin was eating the forbidden fruit, an apple. Jesus was conceived immaculately. And you have Catholic nuns and priests "married" to their faith and not allowed to have sex... and it's not natural and that is why we've had those scandals with pedophile priests. And I'm sure that there's a lot more sexual transgressions that were never discovered or revealed.

Anyway, I don't get why Americans have to be the moral police in these situations. The public keeps making dramas out of non stories. I feel that politicians are for the most part good at their jobs given the parameters they work with. They give a lot to the public as it is. And it's unreasonable to also expect a picture perfect family life out of them. As it is, most Washington politicians have to spend much time away from their families left back in their home states. In fact, many Washington politicians bunk up together in shared apartments.

As to the McCain divorce, if the former Mrs. McCain is staying out of the fray, then it's none of the public's business. I feel that when McCain returned from being a POW, he was a damaged man inside. His soon to be exwife was damaged on the outside. They no longer were a good couple together, and that's why the marriage fell apart. It was so many decades ago and I think that we should stop picking the whole divorce apart. None of us were there and it's done. Divorces are common, so why pick on his situation like it was unique? I'm sure that the Vietnam war tore apart many marriages. And no one should have to be a martyr either just because the public thinks that they should be one. You want martyrdom and sainthood, then you be one. Honestly, I think that Mother Theresa was a flawed human being mentally to spend her life the way she did. But it was her life and her right to life it the way she wanted to.

[DennyCrane]

There have been a number of women in the news recently who have been cheated on. Elizabeth Edwards, Silda Spitzer, and Hillary Clinton. People always ask why they stay. In the case of Clinton, I think it's pretty simple. She wanted to run for President someday and had to decide whether her chances would be better if she stayed with Bill or dumped him. And it's pretty obvious that staying with Bill helps her. First, he helps with fundraising cause he has lots of political allies and no one can raise money the way a popular ex-President can. Second, having an ex-President backing you up helps anytime someone questions your readiness to lead. Third, his popularity and likability could carry over to her. A lot of people admit that the reason they supported her is cause they really wanted him back in The White House. Now imagine if she dumped him. Do you really think America would elect a divorced woman President? How long before people start saying she's a lesbian? In American politics, there are two things every presidential candidate has to be, even though they're completely irrelevant to the job. Married and Christian.

[miu]

Originally Posted by DennyCrane

There have been a number of women in the news recently who have been cheated on. Elizabeth Edwards, Silda Spitzer, and Hillary Clinton. People always ask why they stay. In the case of Clinton, I think it's pretty simple. She wanted to run for President someday and had to decide whether her chances would be better if she stayed with Bill or dumped him. And it's pretty obvious that staying with Bill helps her. First, he helps with fundraising cause he has lots of political allies and no one can raise money the way a popular ex-President can. Second, having an ex-President backing you up helps anytime someone questions your readiness to lead. Third, his popularity and likability could carry over to her. A lot of people admit that the reason they supported her is cause they really wanted him back in The White House. Now imagine if she dumped him. Do you really think America would elect a divorced woman President? How long before people start saying she's a lesbian? In American politics, there are two things every presidential candidate has to be, even though they're completely irrelevant to the job. Married and Christian.

I think that we will continue to be disappointed with our politicians as long as we are so closeminded about wanting them to fit the part in terms of looks, marital status and being Christian. Why does our president need to be handsome or beautiful like some automotive show spokesmodel? And their very busy lives doesn't lend to having a healthy family life. A parent that is so much away from the dinner table is basically leaving their spouse to be the single parent. As to spiritual values, we need to keep that important separation of church and state. Look at how the abortion debate keeps interfering with (imo) more important political issues. Now that I am older, to be honest, I don't care if my political candidate is pro-life if I agree with that person on the rest of their platform. However, when I was in my 20's, a candidate being pro-choice was all important to me.

Anyway, the American public needs to sort out their political and life priorities, because right now, it's all a big mess.

[SanAntoQT]

Originally Posted by miu

Unless you are a swan, as animals, we are not meant to be monogamous. And I bring this up because the mothers in here will tout the wonders of motherly instincts, and many have said that it's our animal nature to want to procreate. But that said, we are human being, homo sapiens that think and have memory. And because of our thought processes, we have evolved and progresses faster than our genetic material. We look back at our history and our mistakes and learn from them. I think that because of the vast numbers of humans on this planet, in order to survive with a decent quality of life, we do need order and discipline in our lives and society. So being monogamous is a better way of living, although not entirely natural to our animal natures.

Women are nurturers and our strength is to tend the home fires and raise the children. Men are hunters and... also want to spread their seed around. In many older cultures, the most powerful or wealthy men had multiple wives, harems or concubines. In Greek and Roman mythologies, their gods were not perfect and frequently cheated on their goddess wives. I guess I see Bill Clinton as a Zeus and Hillary as more accepting Hera.

Then we have Christianity, which is the dominant religion in the US. Sex is not acceptable in the bible except for procreate. The original sin was eating the forbidden fruit, an apple. Jesus was conceived immaculately. And you have Catholic nuns and priests "married" to their faith and not allowed to have sex... and it's not natural and that is why we've had those scandals with pedophile priests. And I'm sure that there's a lot more sexual transgressions that were never discovered or revealed.

Anyway, I don't get why Americans have to be the moral police in these situations. The public keeps making dramas out of non stories. I feel that politicians are for the most part good at their jobs given the parameters they work with. They give a lot to the public as it is. And it's unreasonable to also expect a picture perfect family life out of them. As it is, most Washington politicians have to spend much time away from their families left back in their home states. In fact, many Washington politicians bunk up together in shared apartments.

As to the McCain divorce, if the former Mrs. McCain is staying out of the fray, then it's none of the public's business. I feel that when McCain returned from being a POW, he was a damaged man inside. His soon to be exwife was damaged on the outside. They no longer were a good couple together, and that's why the marriage fell apart. It was so many decades ago and I think that we should stop picking the whole divorce apart. None of us were there and it's done. Divorces are common, so why pick on his situation like it was unique? I'm sure that the Vietnam war tore apart many marriages. And no one should have to be a martyr either just because the public thinks that they should be one. You want martyrdom and sainthood, then you be one. Honestly, I think that Mother Theresa was a flawed human being mentally to spend her life the way she did. But it was her life and her right to life it the way she wanted to.

While I agree with pretty much everything you've posted, I feel that I need to point out that the Bible does not teach that sex is only for procreation. While the Bible does teach that sex outside of marriage is wrong, it does not limit sex within a marriage solely for the purposes of propagating the species. Sex within a marriage as a way to be loving and connect with your spouse is strongly encouraged.