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I have. Did you miss the post where I posted that my mom was an alcoholic?
Well I'm sorry about that, but what difference does that make? Let's say that she was an alcoholic. That would merely make you a candidate for Alanon. You being near alcoholics does not make you an abnormal drinker expert anymore than going to PTA meetings makes you a parent.
And maybe she wasn't an alcoholic. She may have been a hard drinker and NOT an alcoholic. For the alcoholic; "We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control." Alcoholics Anonymous, Chapter 3 More About Alcoholism, page 30.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
How does that compare to not having a drink when you want one? Why don't we hear about alcoholics ending up in the hospital all the time because they chose not to have a drink? Um, because they don't. You can't compare necessary bodily functions to drinking. It's not necessary. Bowel movements are. You are really stretching here with your, supposed analogy.
All that was to debunk the myth that you know anything whatsoever, experientially, about what an alcoholic goes through after they have two or more drinks in their body. They are different than the non-alcoholics physically as well as mentally. Always have been, always is, and always will be. This will power or choice at control you talk about is something that has baffled society for about 7500 years and when a Dr. Silkworth stepped up to the plate, he was the only one ever and seemingly since to finally tell the truth. His truth went something like this; "I've worked with inebriates for some 40 years and most doctors don't because the patients lie, they don't pay their bills and they die. But what I can tell you about these abnormal drinkers is this, I can't help them. I have no clue what ails them or what the solution is."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Why don't we hear about alcoholics ending up in the hospital all the time because they chose not to have a drink?
Most alcoholics just know better than to stop! It's when they are incarcerated or in treatment and dried up when they suffer then consequences of being denied alcohol. Alcohol withdrawal is WAY, WAY worse than coming off of heroin. They convulse, seizure, and ultimately, DT. That usually happens in the hospital or in the asylum-er treatment center, unless they're given valium to ween them off the booze.
So alcoholism is like an allergy, but not like say an allergy to strawberries. If eating strawberries bothers you, then you just don't eat strawberries. But with alcoholism, there are two distinct components here that I posted way back when. Didn't you read it?!
Physical cravings once you start.
Mental obsession that somehow, one day he/she will be able to control and enjoy their drinking.
So the real problem centers in the mind, not the body. This is what 100 sober alcoholics figured out and came up with a 75% recovery rate under their Fellowship that is Alcoholics Anonymous.
To be that successful with that program, two things have to happen first;
Be a real alcoholic and come to know it down to your bones
Want to do something about it and be half as willing to seek recovery as you did a drink.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Sorry, but cigarette and food addiction are far closer to alcoholism.
No. Sorry.
Cigarettes and food don't make you feel like God. They don't give you that sense of comfort and ease that booze does. Booze is not an addiction.
That's right. Booze is not an addiction. It's a very selective malady and it only afflicts about 10% of the population statistically.
You can't drink yourself an alcoholic. But you can eat yourself fat. But even that is more complicated than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
The problem with alcoholism is that the substance alters your reality but that doesn't change that you can choose not to use. Like my mom did.
Well, you were caressing the Truth there for a moment, but then you snapped back.
Is your mom's experience gonna go up against 100 sober and recovered alcoholics? That's 100 people you are arguing with.
Why don't we hear about alcoholics ending up in the hospital all the time because they chose not to have a drink? Um, because they don't. You can't compare necessary bodily functions to drinking. It's not necessary. Bowel movements are. You are really stretching here with your, supposed analogy.
No one said it was easy but it's a choice one you can make without rupturing your bowels or any other physical disaster that might kill you or land you in the hospital.
Wrong. The effects of withdrawal vary from mild to severe. DT's have caused heart attack, stroke and grand mal seizures, all of these can be fatal.
Quote:
The problem with alcoholism is that the substance alters your reality but that doesn't change that you can choose not to use. Like my mom did.
Your mom was just one success story, it doesn't speak to the countless others' experiences.
Let's do it again: "Is it true that if he had gotten away from cheating on her once, and twice, and three time, and four times, with multiple women, when he and she were already in a serious relationship/engaged, he would always continue to cheat on her in the future after they got married?"
Ok since you are digging your heels into this are you the woman that was "fooled" and/or cheated on?
You know, real life is messy - it ain't always pretty.
Sometimes what you don't know can't hurt you. I personally think it's really selfish of a guy to dump all his cheating secrets on his unsuspecting wife just so he can clear his conscience.
Sometimes the more honorable thing to do when a man is really sorry and completely gets how badly he screwed up, is to have to live with himself and what he's done. To atone for it all on his own and go forward to treat his wife like the queen she deserves to be treated like by him for the rest of their lives.
I dont believe that your friend had no idea he was engaged or had another person in his life. Unless this was a long distant relationship. You KNOW when something is wrong in your relationship. Especially if you have been with this person for a while. Ppl have habits and if your man has a habit of leaving you alone on holidays, nights and you can only see him on a random night or early afternoon you have never spent two nights in a row together with him or the time you spend with him is in a hotel.....something is wrong.....i dont believe in the I had no idea types....Whether you had proof or not you HAVE an idea......this poor unsuspecting victim stuff is soooooooo old now............Ladies wake up already!!!
I believe the way someone treats you before marriage is going to be the same way they treat you after marrigage..
So yes if he was a disrespect cheating jerk before then yes he will continue to do the same after getting married.
Well I'm sorry about that, but what difference does that make? Let's say that she was an alcoholic. That would merely make you a candidate for Alanon. You being near alcoholics does not make you an abnormal drinker expert anymore than going to PTA meetings makes you a parent.
And maybe she wasn't an alcoholic. She may have been a hard drinker and NOT an alcoholic. For the alcoholic; "We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control." Alcoholics Anonymous, Chapter 3 More About Alcoholism, page 30.
All that was to debunk the myth that you know anything whatsoever, experientially, about what an alcoholic goes through after they have two or more drinks in their body. They are different than the non-alcoholics physically as well as mentally. Always have been, always is, and always will be. This will power or choice at control you talk about is something that has baffled society for about 7500 years and when a Dr. Silkworth stepped up to the plate, he was the only one ever and seemingly since to finally tell the truth. His truth went something like this; "I've worked with inebriates for some 40 years and most doctors don't because the patients lie, they don't pay their bills and they die. But what I can tell you about these abnormal drinkers is this, I can't help them. I have no clue what ails them or what the solution is."
Most alcoholics just know better than to stop! It's when they are incarcerated or in treatment and dried up when they suffer then consequences of being denied alcohol. Alcohol withdrawal is WAY, WAY worse than coming off of heroin. They convulse, seizure, and ultimately, DT. That usually happens in the hospital or in the asylum-er treatment center, unless they're given valium to ween them off the booze.
So alcoholism is like an allergy, but not like say an allergy to strawberries. If eating strawberries bothers you, then you just don't eat strawberries. But with alcoholism, there are two distinct components here that I posted way back when. Didn't you read it?!
Physical cravings once you start.
Mental obsession that somehow, one day he/she will be able to control and enjoy their drinking.
So the real problem centers in the mind, not the body. This is what 100 sober alcoholics figured out and came up with a 75% recovery rate under their Fellowship that is Alcoholics Anonymous.
To be that successful with that program, two things have to happen first;
Be a real alcoholic and come to know it down to your bones
Want to do something about it and be half as willing to seek recovery as you did a drink.
No. Sorry.
Cigarettes and food don't make you feel like God. They don't give you that sense of comfort and ease that booze does. Booze is not an addiction.
That's right. Booze is not an addiction. It's a very selective malady and it only afflicts about 10% of the population statistically.
You can't drink yourself an alcoholic. But you can eat yourself fat. But even that is more complicated than that.
Well, you were caressing the Truth there for a moment, but then you snapped back.
Is your mom's experience gonna go up against 100 sober and recovered alcoholics? That's 100 people you are arguing with.
Um, yes, my real life experience is to be discounted because it doesn't match yours. My mom was an alcoholic. I have an aunt who was an alcoholic too. She never quit drinking and died of alcoholism. She just kept crawling into that bottle until it killed her.
I disagree on not being able to drink yourself an alcoholic. That's like saying you can't do drugs until you're an addict. Oh yes you can. If you drink enough, often enough, it becomes a way of life for you. Emotional development actually arrests at the point you became a consistent drinker. Drink the same amount daily long enough and your body will even stop returning to a sober state between bouts, just like being a drug addict , because, well alcohol is a drug
Alcohol is like any other drug. If you neve use you never become an addict. If you do use, you run the risk of becomming one. You can become dependent on many different drugs if you use them often enough. Heck, you can become addicted to sinus medications, sleep aids, caffiene, even aspirin. Anything you put into your system often enough and for a long enough time is susceptable to addiction.
People are not born alcoholics. They become alcoholics by choosing to drink often. It's not like herione or cocaine where you become addicted nearly instantly. It takes years to grow into a full fledged alcoholic. Which is why I quit drinking at 20. I tended to drink more than I wanted when I did, recognized the warning signs and chose to walk away rather than walk the road my mom did. That was my choice.
BTW, obviously, you missed the posts about my husband also being an alcoholic. Yeah, I don't have a clue. I just grew up with a few and married one. I've also gone through substance abuse counseling with my husband.
According to my husband's counselor, emotional development arrests at the point in time the abuser/alcoholic starts using regularly and doesn't resume for several months after they're dry. Consistent drinking (like other consistent drug use) results in the body/mind not returning to a truely sober state between usage sessions so judgement is impaired even when "sober". However, it's still a choice. You can choose to use or choose not to use. If you've been at it for a while, you may need to check in somewhere to detox but this is true of many drugs not just alcohol. It's not in a class by itself. Addiction is addiction.
Drug/alcohol use is, unfortunately, attractive to the alcoholic/abuser because it allows them to escape their reality. It's that escape they crave. My husband's counselor says that addicts suffer from euphoric recall. They remember the good times but not the bad. They remember how that first drink or two make them feel and keep drinking trying to recreate that but you can't because you can only get that feeling with the first drink or two. Drinks 3, 4, 5, and so on can never do that but they keep trying anyway.
For some reasons, alcoholics are alone in calling their addiction a disease. I guess it makes it easier to not accept responsiblity. After all, if I have the disease of alcoholism, then it's not my fault and I'm excused if I succumb to the disease that controls my life. Sorry, alcoholism is not like, say diabetes. It's more like drug addiction because, well, it's a drug.
It's closer to things like cigarette or probably food addiction than anything else. Food has the emotional comfort aspect that drinking does without the addictive substances in, say, cigarettes. Food is also a way to deal with emotional issues just like drinking is. But you don't get high off of food. You just get fat.
I disagree on not being able to drink yourself into alcholism. I think if you drink often enough and in sufficient quantities, you'll pickle your brain just as much as the next guy. Notice that people who develop drinking problems seem to get worse and worse not better and better. Kind of like food addiction. Or any other addiction we use to comfort, deal with/escape from emotional issues.
There are lots of similarities between addiction types. Food is sounding the closest to me. There's the predisposition for it if you happen to come from a family with eating issues just like there's a predisposition towards alcohol abuse if you come from a family of abusers. There's the emotional escape aspect, the feeling better when you do it but worse for having done it later aspect, there's the difficulty in changing behavior once it's become habit and both involve euphoric recall.
If alcoholism is a disease so is over eating. I'll go more for emotional issue than disease.
You may define an alcoholic as someone who has lost control and can never regain it but other organizations say otherwise. Many moderation programs teach that the alcoholic can regain control. I have to admit that I side with AA in quitting altoghter. It has to be easier than still doing the thing you tend to lose control with. I've always said I'd do better with weight loss if I could do it the way I quit smoking. Just quit alltogether. This whole have to eat to live thing gets in the way. I can't take a six month break from eating to get it under control. I'd die if I did.
I don't think there is one form of alcoholism. Just because you can't maintain control does not mean that the next alcoholic over can't. When I did my research while my husband was in treatment I was surprised to learn that the success rates for alcholol abuse programs and, surprisingly, no program at all are the same. About 5% will quit/get it under control in any given year. Doesn't seem to matter which program you use but everyone swears by the one that works for them, as it should be because you should do what works for you but that doesn't mean it works for the next guy or your definition of an alcoholic fits everyone.
My mom claimed to be an alcoholic. I'll take her word for it. She's the one who would know. My husband claims not to be one but I don't believe him. He lives in the state of denial.
Anyway, we could go back and forth like this until the cows come home. We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't accept your definition of an alcoholic and you don't accept mine. So beit. My definition fits with my experience and yours with yours. Perhaps there's more than one definition.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-14-2009 at 11:38 AM..
Maybe we can get back on topic before yet ANOTHER thread is shut down.
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It's when they are incarcerated or in treatment and dried up when they suffer then consequences of being denied alcohol. Alcohol withdrawal is WAY, WAY worse than coming off of heroin. They convulse, seizure, and ultimately, DT. That usually happens in the hospital or in the asylum-er treatment center, unless they're given valium to ween them off the booze.
Sorry.
My mom was an alcoholic. I have an aunt who was an alcoholic too. She never quit drinking and died of alcoholism. She just kept crawling into that bottle until it killed her. 
