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The more I read this forum, the more I am convinced people who have never been married have major misconceptions about marriage. Virtually everyone who gets married, wants it to be forever; I've never met anyone who doesn't intend it that way. No one plans to leave in the even of an illness. Everyone believes their marriage will be perfect, unlike the marriages of all those other idiots who obviously just don't take marriage seriously enough and don't know how to "work with" their spouses. Everyone can see with perfect clarity everything that's wrong in other people's relationships; but somehow, people have a much tougher time managing their own.
Threads like this are mostly a chance for people to congratulate themselves for their theoretical virtues and to bash those they deem inferior. And yet, despite all the solemn protestations about how marriage is about work-work-work and sacrifice-sacrifice-sacrifice and twoo wuw no matter what, there is still a 46% divorce rate. Or maybe this forum just has an inexplicably high proportion of virtuous people.
OK, I think some of you are getting the wrong idea here. This thread is NOT about bashing marriage, married people, or characterizing every divorced person as a quitter. Marriage is hard work and I'm sure a lot of people who divorce do so only when they have no choice. But it's also true that there are people out there who give up too easily. I would think that the first group would be offended by the second group. Imagine you're someone who stuck with an alcoholic husband, but you stay with them for years trying to get them help, only to finally realize they don't want to help themselves. So you walk away cause you know the marriage is effectively over and is now just hurting you. Now imagine you run into someone who ditched his wife just because she got fat and old and he wanted someone younger and thinner. How would you react to someone like that giving up on marriage when you worked so hard to keep yours alive? The reason I started this thread is to highlight that second person, the one who doesn't even bother doing the hard work, the one who doesn't really understand what it means to commit to someone else. You can tell a lot about a person's character by whether they keep their commitments and how much effort they put into doing so.
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Originally Posted by smel
I do not believe that DC started this thread in an attempt to say that his values are on a different or higher plane than the values of most people. He is just giving his opinion on the institution of marriage, and he has the right to do so, as do the rest of us.
It's not even the institution I'm commenting on. It's the people. We always hear how 50% of marriages fail. Does that mean marriage just doesn't work? Of course not. What it does mean is that you have to look at those 50% and ask why. Maybe they ended the marriage because one person was abusing the other, maybe one person cheated, or maybe one person just turned into a raving loon. But there are also people out there who treat divorce as a convenient escape hatch. Rather than even attempt to do the heavy lifting, rather than keep their promise to be there for their partner during the rough times, they instead get out.
Smel: You are right. Intelligent people are very, very sad. See Ecclesiastes 1:18. But at least an intelligent person, even while mocking someone else's thinking, will never make flippant insinuations about another's personal life and state of happiness.
But it's also true that there are people out there who give up too easily.
The problem is, Denny -- how do you know which people? And what makes you so sure they give up too easily? I know this even remembering my own thinking when I was younger: other people's problems, even tragedies, seem a lot simpler than they actually are.
I'm not sure. I guess I don't really understand what a "plan" entails. I understand financial plans, such as, "The van will be paid off in November, so let's put aside $200 a month after that, and then when summer rolls around, we'll use it for a down payment on a new car." Even then, sometimes there's a springtime hail storm that wrecks your roof and you need $1000 for the deductible, and there goes your down payment.
What kind of plan could someone have for, say, caring for a parent who had a stroke? Can you really sit down with your fiance(e)--you're not married yet--and plan for that? "Well, Jim, if it's my mom, we'll talk to my sister about helping out twice a week and tell her never to move away, but if it's my dad, I think she'll only agree to once a week because Dad was never very nice to her and I think she's still bitter about that. If it's your mom or dad, that really stinks because you're an only child, so let's plan on your getting a smaller car so we can put some money aside for a part-time caregiver. And of course, kids will have to wait, unless you think we should plan to have one right away. I could scale back my hours to be a mom and caregiver, no matter whose parent it is, but we should move now so there's not as much driving to do. Okay, plan set. Next item to address: if one of us has a stroke. What I think we should do is ..."
Are those kind of plans really possible?
What plan can any of us have? Its all so hopeless, i guess we should just committ mass suicide. Or you can be reasonable enough to start planning today so you will be ready tommorow. And if your unlucky enough it still wont matter, but thats life.
Like it or not, maschuette, what JJ described -- that's life. And it's reality for a lot more people than seems at first glance. If that makes you want to commit suicide, that's your business, I guess; I am not joining you. If you want to make a plan for how you and your husband will react to having a child with disabilities, or if one of you gets a stroke, or if you go bankrupt, of if one of you has an affair, or if there is war, or you just fall out of love, etc., etc., etc., and that plan actually works, do get back to me and tell me how you did it. I'd love to know.
I understand financial plans, such as, "The van will be paid off in November, so let's put aside $200 a month after that, and then when summer rolls around, we'll use it for a down payment on a new car." Even then, sometimes there's a springtime hail storm that wrecks your roof and you need $1000 for the deductible, and there goes your down payment.
yup. that is an example of a plan, and an example of how a plan can change.
i prefer this approach to, say, just not worrying about how you will pay for the van and instead spending the money on crystal meth. that would also be a plan.
other financial plans could be: "we aren't going to use credit cards." or "we are going to buy the biggest house we can afford."
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What kind of plan could someone have for, say, caring for a parent who had a stroke?
i imagine that would be financial in nature. you'd probably want to learn about what a stroke is, and how you care for a stroke victim, what options would be available to you.
i'm not claiming that such a plan would help anyone's marriage, by the way.
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Can you really sit down with your fiance(e)--you're not married yet--and plan for that? "Well, Jim, if it's my mom, we'll talk to my sister about helping out twice a week and tell her never to move away, but if it's my dad, I think she'll only agree to once a week because Dad was never very nice to her and I think she's still bitter about that. If it's your mom or dad, that really stinks because you're an only child, so let's plan on your getting a smaller car so we can put some money aside for a part-time caregiver. And of course, kids will have to wait, unless you think we should plan to have one right away. I could scale back my hours to be a mom and caregiver, no matter whose parent it is, but we should move now so there's not as much driving to do. Okay, plan set. Next item to address: if one of us has a stroke. What I think we should do is ..."
i don't think i could plan specifics that far in advance, no.
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Are those kind of plans really possible?
maybe. i wouldn't call them impossible. you'd need to have a lot of time and money on your hands.
OK, I think some of you are getting the wrong idea here. This thread is NOT about bashing marriage, married people, or characterizing every divorced person as a quitter. Marriage is hard work and I'm sure a lot of people who divorce do so only when they have no choice. But it's also true that there are people out there who give up too easily. I would think that the first group would be offended by the second group. Imagine you're someone who stuck with an alcoholic husband, but you stay with them for years trying to get them help, only to finally realize they don't want to help themselves. So you walk away cause you know the marriage is effectively over and is now just hurting you. Now imagine you run into someone who ditched his wife just because she got fat and old and he wanted someone younger and thinner. How would you react to someone like that giving up on marriage when you worked so hard to keep yours alive? The reason I started this thread is to highlight that second person, the one who doesn't even bother doing the hard work, the one who doesn't really understand what it means to commit to someone else. You can tell a lot about a person's character by whether they keep their commitments and how much effort they put into doing so.
It's not even the institution I'm commenting on. It's the people. We always hear how 50% of marriages fail. Does that mean marriage just doesn't work? Of course not. What it does mean is that you have to look at those 50% and ask why. Maybe they ended the marriage because one person was abusing the other, maybe one person cheated, or maybe one person just turned into a raving loon. But there are also people out there who treat divorce as a convenient escape hatch. Rather than even attempt to do the heavy lifting, rather than keep their promise to be there for their partner during the rough times, they instead get out.
You simply cannot judge every person by the same yardstick because people are as different as snowflakes, each and every one unique.
It is easy to say that people use divorce as a "convenient escape hatch", but nobody goes in to marriage expecting to divorce. And divorce is very difficult, hardly an easy escape. Most people I know who have done it said it is one of the most painful experiences of their life.
And some people are simply better equiped to do that "heavy lifting". After all, we don't all have the exact same muscles and strength level. Maybe YOU could bench press the equilvant of 350 lbs and stay 5 years longer in a bad marriage, but not everyone has that kind of emotional or spiritual muscle.
So, I guess I would say, use caution in judging others and labeling them as "weak" - no two marriages are the same and only the two people involved in one can know exactly what they can and cannot do.
You simply cannot judge every person by the same yardstick because people are as different as snowflakes, each and every one unique.
It is easy to say that people use divorce as a "convenient escape hatch", but nobody goes in to marriage expecting to divorce. And divorce is very difficult, hardly an easy escape. Most people I know who have done it said it is one of the most painful experiences of their life.
And some people are simply better equiped to do that "heavy lifting". After all, we don't all have the exact same muscles and strength level. Maybe YOU could bench press the equilvant of 350 lbs and stay 5 years longer in a bad marriage, but not everyone has that kind of emotional or spiritual muscle.
So, I guess I would say, use caution in judging others and labeling them as "weak" - no two marriages are the same and only the two people involved in one can know exactly what they can and cannot do.
^^^Words of wisdom.
The subject of failed marriages and divorces should be approached with compassion, above all else.
Smel: You are right. Intelligent people are very, very sad. See Ecclesiastes 1:18. But at least an intelligent person, even while mocking someone else's thinking, will never make flippant insinuations about another's personal life and state of happiness.
Sorry, if you took that personally. I did not say that intelligent people were sad. I said that someone who tries to make other people look foolish is sad. Only you would know if that applies to you or not. I hope it doesn't. I also don't judge other people based on the sucess of their marriage. I believe that people's reasons for their behavior are their business, not mine. My parents were each other's only marriage. My dad took care of my mother after she was diagnosed with cancer up until her death. So, I do know that you don't know what obstacles will come up. All you can do is the best you can.
What is important is the PACT that is made using those words.
People need to realize that Marriage is a Pact, a Covenant - an Agreement to loyalty and devotion. We are judged by our ability or lack of, to keep our word.
When you are spoken of as a man or woman of your word, you are viewed as trustworthy, loyal, just.
That is what wedding vows are about. Many people don't believe in "forever" anymore.
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