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You missed the point . . . it is not just danger. . . it is a specific sort of completely helpless and unavoidable desperation over which you have zero control.
I would agree with this in entirety. I think most humans need a semblance of control in their lives. Some more than others, of course. It's a necessary part of the human survival mechanism to maintain a sense of control over various aspects of one's life. In a foxhole, you have literally no control over whether you live or die (much less anything else) and that's a tremendous shock to every part of what being human is.
Not to mention that rarely does one's life ever so much hinge on variables so out of control and with such rigorous pace and fury that one can hardly have a chance to think through anything logically as in a foxhole. A person dying from cancer or a conscious person hooked to a ventilator has the opportunity (probably more opportunities than they care for) to analyze, scrutinize, and dissect the situation to get a better grasp and sense of control of what they are facing - even if it's grim.
In a foxhole... I imagine that every second, every movement, every blink of the eye could very well be your last and what greater nightmare than that? Do decisions made in foxholes really matter? I don't think so. You're in a frickin' foxhole. The goal is to get out of it alive. If that means you pray to the moon god and do a dance to get some sense of control over your situation, and if that's what it takes to help you get out of the foxhole alive... then do the dance and pray to the damn moon god.
The reasoning behind this "No Atheists in a Foxhole" argument is to empower this culturally autistic mindset from the religious right that everyone believes - just not everyone admits it. I think it's a rather pathetic argument and I suspect most people aren't contemplating the intricacies of theology with bullets whizzing by their head and mortars taking out everything around them.
Does anyone think these guys were contemplating theology in their foxholes??
It's just a popular Christian talking point, not supported by any actual facts. It used to be "there are no atheist on a plane that's about to crash." That was a popular one when I was a kid. I suppose the new one is more catchy.
These fallacies are in the same vein as deathbed conversion stories of famous non-believers, also spread by Christians and lacking in any facts. Stories such as those are nothing more than blatant lies, such as the Darwin conversion myth.
You're exactly right. A Christian just can't understand anybody not believing that 2000 year old collection of Jewish fairy tales they were brainwashed with as infants and small children. My barber always comes back at me by telling me his daddy was a Baptist minister like he had no choice. I don't respond because he gives good haircuts but I'm thinking, Moderator cut: Inappropriate language
I have never been in an armed conflict, but I have been a volunteer firefighter for over 30 years, and I have been in a number of situations where I could have easily died or been severely injured. The worst that actually happened was some broken ribs and 2nd degree burns on my shoulders and back.
The absolute last thing on my mind in these situations was praying, begging, or whatever you want to call it to some deity, as that will kill you dead.
This is where you clear your mind of all nonsense, and you use your training, your instinct and your knowledge in addition to keeping a calm head, to keep you and your partner alive.
As a theist volunteer fire fighter ( no longer ride though ), I totally agree with you.
Nevertheless, we do have an elected "chaplain" that leads us in a prayer at every meeting to keep our fire fighters safe, as they preserve and protect the community.
I suspect even the atheist fire fighters figure why not hedge their bets
A Christian just can't understand anybody not believing that 2000 year old collection of Jewish fairy tales they were brainwashed with as infants and small children.
It doesn't always happen that way. Some Christians become so through life changing experiences as adults (after Christless childhoods).
Of course, when talking spirituality we are automatically dealing with intangibles. It seems like a more accurate statement would be "some Christians just can't understand". etc.
It doesn't always happen that way. Some Christians become so through life changing experiences as adults (after Christless childhoods).
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Yep...the depressed, the incarcerated and those who need a crutch.
Our forebears were deists. They spoke out against the bible repeatedly and hoped for something better than the hold held on from whence they came by a theist government. It was going pretty well until a group of zealot preachers put pressure on the secretary of the treasury during a bloody civil war and all but forced the addition of "In Goid We Trust" on our coins. Then...in 1954 during the cold war and the McCarthy years once again brought about adding "Under God" to our pledge of allegiance. Of course you know that Jesus was their rendition of god. When a nation gets in such bad shape that they allow preachers to affect anything...it's a bad shape.
Now without exception each of our presidents is forced to use the "thoughts and prayers" line and close each address to the nation with, "God Bless You and God Bless The United States Of America."
I voted for Mr. Obama but will not do it again. The reason...continuing the Bush Faith Based Initiative.
Yep...the depressed, the incarcerated and those who need a crutch.
I was trying to help you not stereotype. AISI your not far off though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melvin.George
Our forebears were deists. They spoke out against the bible repeatedly and hoped for something better than the hold held on from whence they came by a theist government.
Again, not far off. But painting things strictly black and white is (generally) the work of a fundamentalists mindset (whether faith based or otherwise).
I have no experience of battle so cannot comment on that particular topic but I have had a few brushes with death ( and physical excruciating pain) and not once did it occur to me to pray.
I was threatened by about a bunch of rebels with machines guns in Eritrea in the 80s during the famine and I can honestly say that praying really was not at the fore of my mind... Extreme fear, cowardice and the deep desire to run away, heck yes. Praying to God ? What for, it would be rather pointless. It would have been bizarre to expect a supernatural creature to deal with a very real situation. And let's face it if God could not be bothered to stop the Holocaust or Pol-Pot he would hardly raise his divine little finger to save poor little me...
My Grand-Father and I once spent almost two days at sea ,tossed in one of the worst storms I had ever known , pretty convinced we were going to die and still no prayers.
I had Leukaemia for just over 10 years and was told on several occasions I had weeks ( and on a couple of occasions days) to live and I still had no need of prayers. I hoped the end would swift and painless and that I would retain my dignity but prayer ? Nope. Not tempted even once.
To be honest even if Atheists do pray in Foxholes, it has more to do with a deep desire for human beings to survive. It is an ultimate "gag" reflex so to speak. Fear and pain , having seen your best friend blown up to smithereens is enough to induce the brain to grasp on to anything no matter how unlikely and improbable... It has nothing do do with suddenly gaining faith or a spiritual experience.
Humans are programmed to survive and we will do just about anything it takes not to die. It is simply the animal nature within us. If that survival takes the shape of just for a few minutes losing your intellectual capacity to think logically and analytically and manifests itself with "praying", it really means nothing. Praying is something all of us are familiar with as a concept as religion as for times immemorial been part of our socio-cultural construct whether Atheist or not. It simply becomes a last straw to hang on to, a "what the hell, I might as well try it ".... reflex.
I see nothing even vaguely convincing about Atheists in Foxholes praying as being a sign that all of us crave God. All of us crave life. We hang on by the skin of our teeth if needs be.
We simply resort to the very last resort to save our skins and so what ?
My Great-Uncle spent over 3 years in Death Camps and he saw as many people being converted AWAY from God as he saw converted TO God. In fact a lot more. He was an Atheist when he went in and an Atheist when he came out.
We all have different ways of reacting to certain stresses. What form it takes is in many ways unknown until the said trauma happens.
But I would certainly have serious doubts about anyone being converted on their death bed. Sounds more like a knee jerk reaction to me. Fear of the ultimate end is quite a potent reason for many people to edge their bets.
And to me true faith cannot come from a place of fear or apprehension. If you do not have faith when you are at peace then it is meaningless in a way when in times of extreme trauma. Faith under duress becomes simply another expression of the human spirit clinging on for survival and nothing much should be read into it.
I was trying to help you not stereotype. AISI your not far off though.
Again, not far off. But painting things strictly black and white is (generally) the work of a fundamentalists mindset (whether faith based or otherwise).
Can't help it! I'm a black and white guy, a pragmatist and a realist. It's worked for me so far.
Ya know the battlefield experience is different for everyone who has served. What gets one airman, soldier, marine or sailor through those situations is going to differ. Obviously, those who already believe will probably turn to their god. However, they may see their buddies getting killed and determine there is no god. The same for non-believers. Those who already don't believe probably won't at the end of the day, though some might turn to a god and continue believing if they survive.
To be honest, during a firefight you are not thinking about deities. You are thinking about killing your enemy, protecting your buddies and getting the hell out of there. That's about it. Reflection comes later.
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