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Believers are always very touchy and prickly about their faith. It must be a very delicate and tender faith to smart so under the slightest abrasion.
I can understand how Ella can feel invalidated in her sharing of an important and formative personal experience which has supported and animated her life since the event, if we deconstruct it in any way. I (and I'm sure you, Arq) do not mean to cause her any pain in this regard. But maybe we can take it as an object lesson in the source of theist aversion to skepticism, let alone criticism (even the constructive kind), and their tendency to transform difference of opinion into personal attack and even persecution. If your life is built on a foundation that can be undermined, thus threatening you with ego annihilation, with nothing more than simple questions, then the reaction is understandable.
I have a tendency sometimes to regard theists as stubbornly anti-intellectual and anti-rational, but Ella's very real hurt even in the absence of a literalist mindset, reminds me that it is at bottom more existential for them than just a naked need for "rightness". We are disturbing existential equilibrium, destabilizing a complex, layered, yet inherently fragile structure of rationalizations and wishful thinking, which are no less dear to them for all that. Indeed, its ephemeral, esoteric, ineffable nature MAKES it more precious, even as our realization that this is the only life we actually have, makes THAT more precious to US.
It then becomes a bit of a tightrope walk. I have no desire in the Real World (RW) or meatspace to disturb any theist's composure. As such, I leave them to their illusions, and I find far more often than I would have suspected, that a "don't ask, don't tell" policy develops between us, once they see that I'm impervious to proselytization. Theists know, at some level, their faith is fragile and insubstantial and vulnerable. They don't want us putting any more cognitive load on it, and in ordinary circumstances I don't have any desire to, either.
But in a discussion and debate forum like this, as much as I empathize with Ella, I cannot be muzzled by theist insecurities. There is a solution, and that is, if you're not interested in the heat, don't go into the kitchen. This is not the time or place for a theist to expect affirmation, or even to be let alone. There are plenty of other times and places for that: church services, coffee klatches with like minded friends, a nice cozy fireside read of CS Lewis, what have you. This is a place for the free expression of ideas -- by ALL comers. I believe all such expression should be, and has been, respectful and civil. I don't even see anyone disacknowledging the reality of her experience to herself. In fact, in the context of this thread, her experience is a valid response to the OP's question: do you doubt your faith. So is Arq's response to that response.
I have frankly told Ella that I find her refreshing and have encouraged her to participate. But the key word is participate -- if she is able and willing. That means allowing us to share our experiences and ideas and reactions just as we allow her to share hers. It can be fun for her, if she chooses to approach it that way -- which I hope she will. But if some of her thoughts are so cherished as to be untouchable ... unfortunately it's not that kind of safe place for her. She should do it in small doses, or not at all, in that event. It would be her, and our, loss, but it may be that she is looking for something that this venue isn't designed to provide.
I'm not surprised that you got your ass bitten off. We do understand gravity as we understand electricity and natural selection.
Not down to the last nano -particle of course - I assume that is what you had in mind and not some odd suggestion that we couldn't explain what gravity was without particles to observe - but well enough that we don't need to drag God into it, frankly.
There are well mannered equations that fit the constant reality – heck, I use ‘F=ma’ practically every day, but the nano-particle stuff is where the understanding pales into mere hypotheses. Without measuring the particles or physical mechanism, that’s all scientists have, just hypotheses.
Surely it must be time to petition the CD mods to move A & A out of R & S, if the mention of the non-physical spiritual realm and arrogance of those who Know rubs you guys up the wrong way…? It strikes me as Just Obvious that there is higher intelligence and life, than what can be measured by mere science. There’s a dance song from the 90’s called ‘Open your mind’. It’s on youtube. I felt challenged to suggest you should play it loud and dance along Arequipa – you never know, your worst nightmare might just happen.
Originally Posted by emjbulls For people that are so sure (I would love to see answers from both atheists and religious people), how can you be so sure since there is no irrefutable proof either way?
There is zero reason for either groups to have irrefutable proof. One does not need proof for faith in a God, indeed I would think that proof would remove any reason for one to have faith. One does not need proof of no God or gods in order to not believe in them. I see no reason to believe in any god, no sign, no evidence and no need of one to explain my life, my world or the universe.
I grew up in a household that was not religious however my parents never told us if they believed in God or not. For most of my life I was what I label as apathetic which seems to me from my surroundings describes so many people re religion. That is one of the reasons that I think the percentage of religious people in a country is lower than the census as many would write down the religion they grew up in and the church they go to for weddings and funerals. As I got older the Bible stories and now the push from the fundamentalists seems to affect me so that I have thought more of it and yes I do not believe in God or any other gods.I think there is good proof that some of the Bible stories are not literal but that is as close to disproving God that I can see happening. It is only when Christians for example claim that science proves their beliefs and then misrepresent science to do so only when they try to claim the basis of humanity such as societies, marriage, laws as a Christian or Bible concept that I feel it is worth argueing with them.
There are well mannered equations that fit the constant reality – heck, I use ‘F=ma’ practically every day, but the nano-particle stuff is where the understanding pales into mere hypotheses. Without measuring the particles or physical mechanism, that’s all scientists have, just hypotheses.
Surely it must be time to petition the CD mods to move A & A out of R & S, if the mention of the non-physical spiritual realm and arrogance of those who Know rubs you guys up the wrong way…? It strikes me as Just Obvious that there is higher intelligence and life, than what can be measured by mere science. There’s a dance song from the 90’s called ‘Open your mind’. It’s on youtube. I felt challenged to suggest you should play it loud and dance along Arequipa – you never know, your worst nightmare might just happen.
I have heard evidence faith -based claims without any evidential or logical support described as 'Obvious' before. Gaps for god are logical fallacies whether you try to hide them beyond the universe, deep withing quantum foam, in the unknown infinities beyond below nano -particles or in some sort of vaguely imagined existence where all your fantasies can be fondly believed in as real. They are still without any validity whatsoever.
Yes, if you are pleased to leap on the flimsy excuse of being irritated by glib and airy jediwave 'spiritual' references as a way of getting us pesky atheists out of R & R where we are making religious claims look sick. Good luck with that I think the time when you could just get rid of people who would keep saying what you preferred not to hear has long gone.
Don't mind me. I'm full of christmas spirit (and bacon) at the moment, and I'm missing Shirina.
On the contrary, I'm more than happy to have you guys here, and especially you Areq (...similar to that other fella wants Ella to hang around) - I've had to wipe the tears from eyes, from laughing so much.
I just don't understand why if Atheism is non belief, why the powers That Be would stick you lot in with the rest of us loonies. It's like putting Christians and lions, or matter and anti-matter together.
I can understand how Ella can feel invalidated in her sharing of an important and formative personal experience which has supported and animated her life since the event, if we deconstruct it in any way. I (and I'm sure you, Arq) do not mean to cause her any pain in this regard. But maybe we can take it as an object lesson in the source of theist aversion to skepticism, let alone criticism (even the constructive kind), and their tendency to transform difference of opinion into personal attack and even persecution. If your life is built on a foundation that can be undermined, thus threatening you with ego annihilation, with nothing more than simple questions, then the reaction is understandable.
I have a tendency sometimes to regard theists as stubbornly anti-intellectual and anti-rational, but Ella's very real hurt even in the absence of a literalist mindset, reminds me that it is at bottom more existential for them than just a naked need for "rightness". We are disturbing existential equilibrium, destabilizing a complex, layered, yet inherently fragile structure of rationalizations and wishful thinking, which are no less dear to them for all that. Indeed, its ephemeral, esoteric, ineffable nature MAKES it more precious, even as our realization that this is the only life we actually have, makes THAT more precious to US.
It then becomes a bit of a tightrope walk. I have no desire in the Real World (RW) or meatspace to disturb any theist's composure. As such, I leave them to their illusions, and I find far more often than I would have suspected, that a "don't ask, don't tell" policy develops between us, once they see that I'm impervious to proselytization. Theists know, at some level, their faith is fragile and insubstantial and vulnerable. They don't want us putting any more cognitive load on it, and in ordinary circumstances I don't have any desire to, either.
But in a discussion and debate forum like this, as much as I empathize with Ella, I cannot be muzzled by theist insecurities. There is a solution, and that is, if you're not interested in the heat, don't go into the kitchen. This is not the time or place for a theist to expect affirmation, or even to be let alone. There are plenty of other times and places for that: church services, coffee klatches with like minded friends, a nice cozy fireside read of CS Lewis, what have you. This is a place for the free expression of ideas -- by ALL comers. I believe all such expression should be, and has been, respectful and civil. I don't even see anyone disacknowledging the reality of her experience to herself. In fact, in the context of this thread, her experience is a valid response to the OP's question: do you doubt your faith. So is Arq's response to that response.
I have frankly told Ella that I find her refreshing and have encouraged her to participate. But the key word is participate -- if she is able and willing. That means allowing us to share our experiences and ideas and reactions just as we allow her to share hers. It can be fun for her, if she chooses to approach it that way -- which I hope she will. But if some of her thoughts are so cherished as to be untouchable ... unfortunately it's not that kind of safe place for her. She should do it in small doses, or not at all, in that event. It would be her, and our, loss, but it may be that she is looking for something that this venue isn't designed to provide.
First let me say that I do not feel invalidated. That is an erroneous statement. I would like for you to understand that. I've shared my story numerous times in this forum. It is not the first time someone has said something negative. I am not ashamed of it. Nothing anyone can say can make me feel invalidated or shamed. With all due respect, another person's opinion of me only matters if I value that person in some way. I feel no hurt. I feel mad. There is a difference.
Each time I read through your post, I'm getting madder.
I must say that your characterization of me is incorrect. That may be the way you see me, but it is not right.
I'm learning more and more about those craftily written insults. I'm doing my best to learn as quickly as I can.
I really can't quite figure out this post. So, I am going to try.
Did you read my original post? Did I ever say it was about anyone but me? Did I ever claim that I knew best for everyone? Did I say anything that didn't have to do with me personally?
Do you mean that *anything* that is said is fair game? Do you think my answer to Arq's post was defending my faith? Do you really think I am pissed because Arq challenged, or said something about, or just replied to my post? Below is Arq's post to me after I had posted.
Do you really consider this "civil discourse"? I bolded his comments.
=================================
Post 51 page 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
This is a zombie thread? Never mind. I wasn't going to pick it up, but your post Ella provoked a childhood memory.
I was a really young, really, and when I awoke to see lights flashing around the room and mysterious clanking noises outside, I was pretty freaked.
However, when my dad came in and took me to the window and showed me the men with their lanterns working on the railway line (1) my fears vanished immediately, once I understood what it all was. Indeed it was rather comforting to think of the men out there beavering away with their lanterns.
It might have worked if the old man had told me to hang onto my belief in santa who would protect me from those terrifying Things out there. But it would have been absolutely the wrong way to do it.
Godfaith as a way of protecting from childish fears is not too great. Reverting to a childlike faith is not great. And we already discussed reasons to question the feelings we get that some interpret as a mental link with a real god.
While you are free to believe whatever you like, you can understand why none of the reasons you give for your belief really do not add up to anything but Faith.
(1) a perfect example of why anecdotes of supernatural claims are useless. We have no idea of what really happened.
=====================================
My response is 52 page 6 Please do me the courtesy of reading it.
Do you think This is a zombie thread? is really the way to start a post to anybody if you merely want to state your beliefs? Do you think that this is civil? If anybody wanted to refute my statement, why didn't he/she just post his own experience? That is what the thread asked.
While you are free to believe whatever you like, you can understand why none of the reasons you give for your belief really do not add up to anything but Faith.
Did I claim that it was anything but faith? Did I ever state that God was real for the whole world? Did I say one word against anybody else? Did I put forth any "reasons for my beliefs" other than for myself?
What reasons did I give for my faith that had to do with anyone else? Why is my response the only Christian response Arq answered? Did I mention him in my original post?
(1) a perfect example of why anecdotes of supernatural claims are useless. We have no idea of what really happened.
This is calling me a liar. I know what really happened. I was there. This was not an anecdote to convince anyone of anything. I didn't put it out there to prove anything to anybody. Do you want to show me where I did? Why call me a liar? That is beyond the scope of discourse or civility or common decency. I don't care what anybody says. But, go ahead, you tell me that this is ok.
---------------------------------
Post 53 p 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Believers are always very touchy and prickly about their faith. It must be a very delicate and tender faith to smart so under the slightest abrasion. It is so often taken personally when we explain why faith -claims have no value. It is tempting to say nothing, but that is too much like 'having no answer'.
First of all, it was not my faith I was prickly about. Did I say anything about my faith?
The entire next sentence is a direct insult to me. What I've got to figure out is how to insult others and keep the mods off my tail. You all are good at it. I'm trying to take a lesson
(snip)
[quote=AREQUIPA;37741640]I have said that you are free to believe what you like, and your explanations are informative. If you intended them as merely telling, not arguing, then i am merely telling, not arguing, that if such claims were presented as some kind of validation of faith, then they would not in fact amount to any valid support of any faith -belief whatsoever. (/quote)
What claims did I make?
What is the validation for faith?
What did I say I was trying to prove?
Do I need validation that I went to the Grocery store yesterday?
(snip)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
The fact is that those outside can often see the matter clearer than those inside. Just as Lovers are the only ones who cannot see the matter objectively. 'Love' was discussed and the powerful delusion recognized as a real thing but not a reliable or true thing.
Is the love you feel for your children a delusion? This is a mean statement.
Many other effects - from ghost limbs to Voices, feelings of a Presence to messages from space aliens - are seen (to a greater or lesser extent) as illusions of the mind, and the Samhadi effect of prolonged intense prayer through to memories of previous lives, OOB's and NDE's (and what are we supposed to make of those who swear that demons appeared to them?) all had to be left in the same pending tray - unproven, therefore not yet worthy of belief as per the Claim.
This is too much. You cannot link love to mental illness without insulting me. I said I felt love. You can say you don't feel love. You don't have the right to tell I am mentally ill. There we go again. I just don't know the fine art of insulting people where it ok with everybody. But I am learning. Where I come from, people don't have to learn to disguised their insults. We don't insult everybody with every line we write. We understand civil discourse.
I've addressed your post the best I can. Even in war there are rules. There is putting forth an argument and then there is crossing the line. If you don't think there is crossing the line, you let me know. If you do, then say so. Either answer is ok with me.
Last edited by mensaguy; 12-23-2014 at 10:54 AM..
Reason: fixed quote tags
Do you think This is a zombie thread? is really the way to start a post to anybody if you merely want to state your beliefs? Do you think that this is civil? If anybody wanted to refute my statement, why didn't he/she just post his own experience? That is what the thread asked.
Ummm .... Ella, I'm afraid you put your foot in your mouth. I've only returned to the forum half an hour ago and even I knew what was meant by "zombie thread."
It has NOTHING to do with your beliefs.
A "zombie thread" is a really old thread that someone bumped back into circulation. If you go back a few pages, you'll notice that this thread was active in 2009. Yeah, this thread is almost 5 years old.
That's what "zombie thread" means - a thread that was resurrected from the dead, i.e. a dead thread that became active again.
There was no insult given or implied. Gotta brush up on your internet nomenclature, I'm afraid.
Ummm .... Ella, I'm afraid you put your foot in your mouth. I've only returned to the forum half an hour ago and even I knew what was meant by "zombie thread."
It has NOTHING to do with your beliefs.
A "zombie thread" is a really old thread that someone bumped back into circulation. If you go back a few pages, you'll notice that this thread was active in 2009. Yeah, this thread is almost 5 years old.
That's what "zombie thread" means - a thread that was resurrected from the dead, i.e. a dead thread that became active again.
There was no insult given or implied. Gotta brush up on your internet nomenclature, I'm afraid.
Thanks! That does make me feel better. I was real bent out of shape.
[quote=Ella Parr;37745151]I really can't quite figure out this post. So, I am going to try.
Did you read my original post? Did I ever say it was about anyone but me? Did I ever claim that I knew best for everyone? Did I say anything that didn't have to do with me personally?
Do you mean that *anything* that is said is fair game? Do you think my answer to Arq's post was defending my faith? Do you really think I am pissed because Arq challenged, or said something about, or just replied to my post? Below is Arq's post to me after I had posted.
Do you really consider this "civil discourse"? I bolded his comments.
=================================
Post 51 page 6
[quote=AREQUIPA;37741640]
This is a zombie thread? Never mind. I wasn't going to pick it up, but your post Ella provoked a childhood memory.
I was a really young, really, and when I awoke to see lights flashing around the room and mysterious clanking noises outside, I was pretty freaked.
However, when my dad came in and took me to the window and showed me the men with their lanterns working on the railway line (1) my fears vanished immediately, once I understood what it all was. Indeed it was rather comforting to think of the men out there beavering away with their lanterns.
It might have worked if the old man had told me to hang onto my belief in santa who would protect me from those terrifying Things out there. But it would have been absolutely the wrong way to do it.
Godfaith as a way of protecting from childish fears is not too great. Reverting to a childlike faith is not great. And we already discussed reasons to question the feelings we get that some interpret as a mental link with a real god.
While you are free to believe whatever you like, you can understand why none of the reasons you give for your belief really do not add up to anything but Faith.
(1) a perfect example of why anecdotes of supernatural claims are useless. We have no idea of what really happened. (/quote)
=====================================
My response is 52 page 6 Please do me the courtesy of reading it.
Do you think This is a zombie thread? is really the way to start a post to anybody if you merely want to state your beliefs? Do you think that this is civil? If anybody wanted to refute my statement, why didn't he/she just post his own experience? That is what the thread asked.
While you are free to believe whatever you like, you can understand why none of the reasons you give for your belief really do not add up to anything but Faith.
Did I claim that it was anything but faith? Did I ever state that God was real for the whole world? Did I say one word against anybody else? Did I put forth any "reasons for my beliefs" other than for myself?
What reasons did I give for my faith that had to do with anyone else? Why is my response the only Christian response Arq answered? Did I mention him in my original post?
(1) a perfect example of why anecdotes of supernatural claims are useless. We have no idea of what really happened.
This is calling me a liar. I know what really happened. I was there. This was not an anecdote to convince anyone of anything. I didn't put it out there to prove anything to anybody. Do you want to show me where I did? Why call me a liar? That is beyond the scope of discourse or civility or common decency. I don't care what anybody says. But, go ahead, you tell me that this is ok.
---------------------------------
Post 53 p 7
[quote=AREQUIPA;37741640] Believers are always very touchy and prickly about their faith. It must be a very delicate and tender faith to smart so under the slightest abrasion. It is so often taken personally when we explain why faith -claims have no value. It is tempting to say nothing, but that is too much like 'having no answer'. (/quote)
First of all, it was not my faith I was prickly about. Did I say anything about my faith?
The entire next sentence is a direct insult to me. What I've got to figure out is how to insult others and keep the mods off my tail. You all are good at it. I'm trying to take a lesson
(snip)
[quote=AREQUIPA;37741640]I have said that you are free to believe what you like, and your explanations are informative. If you intended them as merely telling, not arguing, then i am merely telling, not arguing, that if such claims were presented as some kind of validation of faith, then they would not in fact amount to any valid support of any faith -belief whatsoever. (/quote)
What claims did I make?
What is the validation for faith?
What did I say I was trying to prove?
Do I need validation that I went to the Grocery store yesterday?
(snip)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
The fact is that those outside can often see the matter clearer than those inside. Just as Lovers are the only ones who cannot see the matter objectively. 'Love' was discussed and the powerful delusion recognized as a real thing but not a reliable or true thing. (/quote)
Is the love you feel for your children a delusion? This is a stupid statement.
Many other effects - from ghost limbs to Voices, feelings of a Presence to messages from space aliens - are seen (to a greater or lesser extent) as illusions of the mind, and the Samhadi effect of prolonged intense prayer through to memories of previous lives, OOB's and NDE's (and what are we supposed to make of those who swear that demons appeared to them?) all had to be left in the same pending tray - unproven, therefore not yet worthy of belief as per the Claim.
This is too much. You cannot link love to mental illness without insulting me. I said I felt love. You can say you don't feel love. You don't have the right to tell I am mentally ill. There we go again. I just don't know the fine art of insulting people where it ok with everybody. But I am learning. Where I come from, people don't have to learn to disguised their insults. We don't insult everybody with every line we write. We understand civil discourse.
I've addressed your post the best I can. Even in war there are rules. There is putting forth an argument and then there is crossing the line. If you don't think there is crossing the line, you let me know. If you do, then say so. Either answer is ok with me.
It's up to you. I can't understand why you are getting so offended, but maybe it's because I'm not a believer. You used the term mental illness, not me. Human delusion or at least illusions is the way we work. mental illness is not the same thing at all. True, mental illness can lead to effects that are similar to extreme delusions, and deluded thought through either mental illness or extremes of irrationality can look alike.
Irrationality of the more extreme type which probably means different from the norm is the way we usually think. Because we don't teach sound reasoning, not in the school, the home or politics. And yet it is something that we need badly.
Now, if you applied sound reasoning, you would say that you recognize the feeling you had once, and have had since and have now, and you have to give weight to the other explanations than a sort of vague mix of God and love.
But you think in terms of the delusion of Love having some sort of independent entity that is similar to or indeed part of 'God' (how much that reminds me of the Atheist blogger who turned theist - through some delusional and logically unsound idea that morality, so far from being a human convention, was a separate entity which appears to have turned into 'God' I do hope she has come to her senses).
Which brings me back to the delusion. We talk of losing ones' senses but it is all the same delusion and unreason, from the perfectly normal illusion that the buses always pass three on the other side before one comes this side...whichever side you are waiting, through religion and the delusions that the complexity of nature is proof of a designer, through prophecy and the similar belief in abduction, messages from space aliens and recall of former lives which are not mental illness, but an unreasoning delusion, or so the most likely explanation goes.
In fact it is rather yourself, slapping the idea of mental illness onto people like the Hills, who truly believed that they had been abducted by space aliens, and that they rather allowed themselves to be led into flashback 'memories' in dreams is only now being seen as the explanation, who is dishing out accusations of mental illness on those who don't deserve it.
I can understand why you did it, but now you know better. There is a whole range of human delusion from the generally acceptable through the whacky to the kind we can't tell from the products of real mental damage. But to leap from one to the other is taking offence at something I didn't say and you misunderstood.
(1) a perfect example of why anecdotes of supernatural claims are useless. We have no idea of what really happened.
good heavens. This note is related to MY experience, not yours
P.s I'm not sure why you highlighted "zombie thread". But that just means an old long forgotten one that someone bumped up with a recent post. If that was something cited as an example of my crossing the line, I suggest, dear lady, you go and sit quietly in front of a mirror and ask your self why you are looking for things to be offended about.
P.p s The love you feel for your children is an illusion and a delusion. That does not make it any less real, needful and indeed praiseworthy. Practically everything in nature is an illusion and most of the ways we act and react are delusions. But I can see that you would have to set a lot of prejudices, mental baggage and assumptions aside and stop taking these ideas personally or as attacks on yourself before we could even look at this aspect of reality.
And maybe you would prefer not to as such discussions can do damage to the basis of belief in Godfaith. On the other hand, if you stuck with it, you might be surprised at how much room there still was for the possibility of a 'god', though not much left of the supposed evidence and rationale.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-23-2014 at 11:15 AM..
Ella's and Arequipa's posts are perfect examples of why believers and atheists are bound not to get along when debating, and why I wrote some of what I did in the atheist proselytising thread. Science based belief systems are only concerned with the physical, or especially non-spiritual explanations or proofs. Believers are concerned with interpreting the spiritual significance of thoughts and feelings that they have. Debate between the two is a recipe for friction, and especially under the heading of the thread title which allows for both to be expressed. FWIW, I am however planning to write a 'My belief story', or 'Your belief story' thread - I'd be interested to hear some of the formative experiences of believers and non-believers in the R & S section, and how things changed or didn't as your story unfolded.
The Christians and the lions...
Well, what I really don't understand is why turn this into a debate. The OP asked a question to both Christians and Atheists. Which ever you are, just give your statement. That is pretty much the debate. There is never any need to debate somebody when it is just a matter of each making a statement of a personal experience. Whatever that person says is his or her own statement of what happened to him or her. It isn't grounds for WW3.
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I think the time when you could just get rid of people who would keep saying what you preferred not to hear has long gone.
I'm doing my best to learn as quickly as I can.
is the way we usually think. Because we don't teach sound reasoning, not in the school, the home or politics. And yet it is something that we need badly.
