Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yeah, there may after all be a micro-climate to contend about in a space satellite or on an asteroid. Then, there may exist newly-developed eco-systems all over the planet without specifically deserved regions for the altered micro-climatic conditions.
Well my wife and I stayed in a home in the Rocky Mountains that was built at the 8,400 foot level. After a few days my wife did get sick and we had to get off the mountain. However even that took a few days. I myself never experienced any altitude sickness at all. And if I am correct the actual altitude where the NAMI found the Ark was around 12,500 feet. In their video you can hear the heavy breathing. So it would not be a stretch to believe that these younger people could make such a climb, and just 4,000 feet higher than were my wife and I found ourselves. For years numerous others have made the same climb and stated they saw the ark also. And not one of them found the need for oxygen. We really don't know the full story yet. So lets just sit back and see how all of this plays out. And let the chips fall where they may.
Oxygen levels fall off exponentially. Which means if you go up twice as far, you have 4 times less oxygen. So your 8400 feet, which is ≈ the elevation above Sea Level of the lobby of the luxo Hotel Telluride where we stayed, does indeed post that exact warning. not everyone gets sick @ ≈ 8000 feet, but @ 12 - 13k? That's quite a different story! They would not be able to have any paying customers in the hotel if it were at the 12,500 foot level, unless they issued everyone little mobile O2 bottles and masks
The problem here, Tom, is that you won't even budge on the fact that this is so improbable, not to mention technically unfeasible. Yes, they did in fact, walk up from a base camp, but that still took time, esp. if the destination is over 10,000 feet. Basecamp would have to be less than 9000 feet typically, especially for novice tourists. And to do what you so casually claim they then accomplished, after hiking (exerting) up at least 2000 more feet, followed by a (maximum) half-day on-site (their admission), in a raging blizzard (ditto; their claim), and going down into a previously unexplored cave (their claim, and pictures), with only flashlights, unroped (treacherously unsafe, BTW...) and to then come to an instantconclusion that this is, near 100% for sure, The Noah's Ark?
And you then just as assuredly believe it, with no further investigation? Yikes: if I were going to hang my entire intellectual reputation and beliefs on such shoddy and obviously faked work, I'd be a bit more circumspect. But you? Apparently not... just because this group of Grande Pikers claim to have found your spiritual touchstone (which for a host of other technical reasons cannot have happened: see our prior debates, which you also lost) you're in full accord. and won't even admit this has a slight odor (full-tilt stink?) to it.
You don't have even a single skeptical bone in your body as regards the bible, do you? But as for good old fashioned checkable facts and deductive science? It's ALL balderdash & bias to you. Hmmm... sorta limits your future education options, don't it? As in: no self-respecting and accredited university would ever let you into their science program. Their students have to be impartial and open-minded.
Tom's assertions all make perfect, believable sense, right folks? Let's hear your approval applause for Tom's argument. (At least he did acknowledge that there's some chips to yet fall. I agree; when you chop down a rotting tree, there's often some chips left on the ground...).
Let's also put some sort of very reasonable time frame on this one, n'k, Tom? As in: if there's been no new expedition or exposé provided by, say, August 1, 2011, it'll all be officially over for the SCAMI™ and you'll regrettably "admit' this was all a NAM.... er... I mean SCAM™. What else could you conclude?
Yes, they could say (and you'd likely buy into it, since you already have bought into their oft-delayed timetable so far...): "We have definite and absolute plans to re-ascend in late 2018 [so send money ASAP...]..." but that won't make it any more plausible. In fact, that would be another sort of admission....
Applause for Tom's version? Anyone? Anyone?
<crickets>
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgnostic
Yeah, there may after all be a micro-climate to contend about in a space satellite or on an asteroid. Then, there may exist newly-developed eco-systems all over the planet without specifically deserved regions for the altered micro-climatic conditions.
You may have a point, tg; perhaps shortly after the Chinese tourists arrived, all panting and stuff, the "greys" dropped an invisible bubble cover over the whole thing. To, you know, help the Chinese scamists. But... but... the raging blizzard? Perhaps that was but a holographic image.
(you see: there is always a highly imaginative and very creative explanation ready to deny science at every turn. And so, let's use them. No-one will notice how silly they are...)
I'm having trouble breathing this stinky stuff in!
I just looked up a few more interesting links for Tom about AMS (Acute mountain sickness) or altitude hypoxia as we used to call it. There's a lot of info easily available. Tom claims his experience @ 8000 feet ASL mean his beloved NAMI-Scamists could have easily worked at the 12,500 foot level with no oxygen.
Well, Denver has fully 17% less O2 than @ sea level ( a mere 5000 ft ASL), and @ 8000 feet it's reduced to 25% less. At 12,500, it's about ≈50% less. Pant pant. And these folks were climbing in and out of unexplored caves. Extra exertion? Huh? Nahhhhh... Why on earth would you say that? (damned scientists anyhow!)
Anyhow, here's a few very interesting links showing exactly how and why the NAMi-Scam expedition was NEVER up at the 12,500 foot level on Ararat, in bad weather:
Telluride even has an entire web page dedicated to the problem, and they are only at relatively lower elevations (≈ 8500-9k feet + or -)!
Very High Altitude: 3500 - 5500 m (11500 - 18000 ft)
Extreme Altitude: above 5500 m
Practically speaking, however, we generally don't worry much about elevations below about 2500 m (8000 ft) since altitude illness rarely occurs lower than this. "
Oh goody! The Ark's proven remains are at Very High Altitude, the survival of which requires, often, weeks of pre-acclimation at els. below 8000 feet. Oddly, our heros arrived in their heated or A/C'd micro-van, unpacked, spent a night in the base camp tents seen in their classic video, and hiked off up Ararat, using their "stability poles" on dry, hard flat ground (, ) then adding in an additional ≈5000 feet to their situation with athletic impunity, having "exerted" all the way up. Then they endured significantly less O2 during their brief but very active stay, and then again on the way back down, when they were all obviously tired. All in a storm.
Oxygen levels fall off exponentially. Which means if you go up twice as far, you have 4 times less oxygen. So your 8400 feet, which is ≈ the elevation above Sea Level of the lobby of the luxo Hotel Telluride where we stayed, does indeed post that exact warning. not everyone gets sick @ ≈ 8000 feet, but @ 12 - 13k? That's quite a different story! They would not be able to have any paying customers in the hotel if it were at the 12,500 foot level, unless they issued everyone little mobile O2 bottles and masks
The problem here, Tom, is that you won't even budge on the fact that this is so improbable, not to mention technically unfeasible. Yes, they did in fact, walk up from a base camp, but that still took time, esp. if the destination is over 10,000 feet. Basecamp would have to be less than 9000 feet typically, especially for novice tourists. And to do what you so casually claim they then accomplished, after hiking (exerting) up at least 2000 more feet, followed by a (maximum) half-day on-site (their admission), in a raging blizzard (ditto; their claim), and going down into a previously unexplored cave (their claim, and pictures), with only flashlights, unroped (treacherously unsafe, BTW...) and to then come to an instantconclusion that this is, near 100% for sure, The Noah's Ark?
And you then just as assuredly believe it, with no further investigation? Yikes: if I were going to hang my entire intellectual reputation and beliefs on such shoddy and obviously faked work, I'd be a bit more circumspect. But you? Apparently not... just because this group of Grande Pikers claim to have found your spiritual touchstone (which for a host of other technical reasons cannot have happened: see our prior debates, which you also lost) you're in full accord. and won't even admit this has a slight odor (full-tilt stink?) to it.
You don't have even a single skeptical bone in your body as regards the bible, do you? But as for good old fashioned checkable facts and deductive science? It's ALL balderdash & bias to you. Hmmm... sorta limits your future education options, don't it? As in: no self-respecting and accredited university would ever let you into their science program. Their students have to be impartial and open-minded.
Tom's assertions all make perfect, believable sense, right folks? Let's hear your approval applause for Tom's argument. (At least he did acknowledge that there's some chips to yet fall. I agree; when you chop down a rotting tree, there's often some chips left on the ground...).
Let's also put some sort of very reasonable time frame on this one, n'k, Tom? As in: if there's been no new expedition or exposé provided by, say, August 1, 2011, it'll all be officially over for the SCAMI™ and you'll regrettably "admit' this was all a NAM.... er... I mean SCAM™. What else could you conclude?
Yes, they could say (and you'd likely buy into it, since you already have bought into their oft-delayed timetable so far...): "We have definite and absolute plans to re-ascend in late 2018 [so send money ASAP...]..." but that won't make it any more plausible. In fact, that would be another sort of admission....
Applause for Tom's version? Anyone? Anyone?
<crickets>
You may have a point, tg; perhaps shortly after the Chinese tourists arrived, all panting and stuff, the "greys" dropped an invisible bubble cover over the whole thing. To, you know, help the Chinese scamists. But... but... the raging blizzard? Perhaps that was but a holographic image.
(you see: there is always a highly imaginative and very creative explanation ready to deny science at every turn. And so, let's use them. No-one will notice how silly they are...)
Well rifleman, in your mind no doubt there are many things you would consider impossible. Yet in the link below we read.
Although we now have a much clearer idea of how a climber can make an "oxygenless" ascent of Mt. Everest,
I am not ignoring science here rifleman. However I do believe you are unaware of some of sciences new findings. Especially when it comes to the need for oxygen at altitude. Consider the link below.
And you would be correct about me not having a skeptical bone in my body about the Biblical account. And the reason for that is because of my numerous encounters with it's author over the many years of my life.
"Sometime between one or two in the afternoon on May 8, 1978, Messner and Habeler achieved what was believed to be (IMPOSSIBLE)-the first ascent of Mt. Everest without oxygen." Link below.
Well rifleman, in your mind no doubt there are many things you would consider impossible. Yet in the link below we read.
Although we now have a much clearer idea of how a climber can make an "oxygenless" ascent of Mt. Everest,
I am not ignoring science here rifleman. However I do believe you are unaware of some of sciences new findings. Especially when it comes to the need for oxygen at altitude. Consider the link below.
And you would be correct about me not having a skeptical bone in my body about the Biblical account. And the reason for that is because of my numerous encounters with it's author over the many years of my life.
"Sometime between one or two in the afternoon on May 8, 1978, Messner and Habeler achieved what was believed to be (IMPOSSIBLE)-the first ascent of Mt. Everest without oxygen." Link below.
Often rifleman there is a big difference between what you believe is true science and the reality of what really is.
The two links above are good, but they aren't going to help support your point of view. Messner and Habeler were highly experienced mountain climbers (really big mountains), and spent a great deal of time training as well as a lot of time gradually acclimating. They were well prepared.
Regarding Ararat and NAMI, were the Japanese highly experienced and prepared mountain climbers? It doesn't really appear they were dressed or equipped for such a climb.
Tom inadvertently absolutely confirms my claims with his link:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
Well rifleman, in your mind no doubt there are many things you would consider impossible. Yet in the link below we read.
Although we now have a much clearer idea of how a climber can make an "oxygenless" ascent of Mt. Everest,
I am not ignoring science here rifleman. However I do believe you are unaware of some of sciences new findings. Especially when it comes to the need for oxygen at altitude. Consider the link below.
And you would be correct about me not having a skeptical bone in my body about the Biblical account. And the reason for that is because of my numerous encounters with it's author over the many years of my life.
"Sometime between one or two in the afternoon on May 8, 1978, Messner and Habeler achieved what was believed to be (IMPOSSIBLE)-the first ascent of Mt. Everest without oxygen." Link below.
Often rifleman there is a big difference between what you believe is true science and the reality of what really is.
You didn't read your own link, did you? No, you don't ignore science, you selectively quote-mine it, without considering the full story. Ever wonder what a parrot-head looks and sounds like, folks?
If you'd read your own link ,and then thought about it, even briefly, you'd have caught that the participants trained for months, and high elevations. Did your Chinese tourists do this? Do they look like trained mountaineers?
As NB so clearly observes and then points out here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightBazaar
The two links above are good, but they aren't going to help support your point of view. Messner and Habeler were highly experienced mountain climbers (really big mountains), and spent a great deal of time training as well as a lot of time gradually acclimating. They were well prepared.
Regarding Ararat and NAMI, were the Japanese highly experienced and prepared mountain climbers? It doesn't really appear they were dressed or equipped for such a climb.
(No duhhh, NB, you got it right on! But, just for clarity: these felons are Chinese, not Japanese. I'm sure the Japanese would not want to be implicated in this SCAM in any way )
Tom points us to one or two climbers doing what medical and high-altitude specialists had decided was almost impossible, that the amount of oxygen available to the body is generally insufficient to accomplish what was necessary. They also note that, at the levels of oxygen at high altitudes, the climber, even a well-trained one, could only walk at a very s..l....o........w .......pace. As we see in any related videos.
Like: take a step .................................................. .take another step..............................and another............ (pant pant pant...) etc. etc.
Not ecstatically group hugging and dancing around. Nope.
But then, HUZ-zah!!, Praise the Lord! Tom magically (and there's no other good word here) applies it to everyone. Him, me, the Chinese tourists, men, women, anyone who wants to climb in a very low oxygen environment.
What's absolutely fascinating here, Tom, is how you always come up with an excuse, always by conflating and comparing one-off unique situations that apply to very well trained and also medically monitored people with a group of folks who need stability hiking poles to walk on flat, level dry ground.
You've done this with the source of magic water for your imagined global flood, to imagined 4000 yr old DNA in 13 million-year old fossils, for how noah got all the necessary animals on-board and kept htem alive, for literally any and every biblical fable.
[BTW, and I hate to correct you on something you're supposed to be the expert on here: God didn't write the bible. A bunch of very biased but illiterate prophets did. I'm surprised you didn't know this! Wow!]
As a no-fooling alternative to Tom's over-simplified one-off situations, which in this case had a medical monitoring and follow-up team in attendance, do read this, folks (not you, Tom; it would be too upsetting for you...)
Full hematological adaptation to high altitude is achieved when the increase of red blood cells reaches a plateau and stops. After that period, the subject below extreme altitude [5,500 metres (18,000 ft)] is able to perform his activities as if he were at sea level.
(Now, if Tom were presenting this, here's where he would stop, and would post it as PROOF that anyone could, indeed, do anything at high elevations. However, let's continue reading, shall we?)
The length of full hematological adaptation can be approximated by multiplying the altitude in kilometers by 11.4 days. For example, to adapt to 4,000 metres (13,000 ft) of altitude would require around 46 days.[17] However, no length of adaptation can allow humans to permanently live above 5,950 metres (19,520 ft).[7]
So from this, we can easily calculate how long our adroit touristas had to have acclimatized for:
Altitude in km X 11.4 days [12,5000 ft = 3846m = 3.846km)
Undt zoh, (ahem...) acclimatization time, in DAYS = 43.84 days.
Hmmm... going back that far, these apparently well-trained and ultra-athletic touristas, on their driven Quest For God's Boat, were still snug back in their offices in Singapore.
Prediction: Tom will of course have a clever (but useless) come-back here.
______________________________________
I do, I'll admit it, find this morbidly amusing; that fundy Christians can so easily be goaded into a predictable demonstration of their huge technical illiteracy, their complete inability to see the obvious and the readily apparent, and their all-consuming faith in the truly impossible. Then, when this is pointed out, they denounce "science", as though it were some sort of demon.
(Well, of course, in a way, that is true for them: Truth is the anti-Christ...)
What's even morehypocritical is that when they need it, they will suddenly befriend the science demon by selectively quote-mining parts of it (carbon dating is suddenly A-OK; geology does prove such-and-such; physiological studies apparently prove anyone can scamper up Everest without oxygen.)
Yada yada yada. Absolutely no skeptical, critical thinking or consideration of any consequences or alternate scenarios allowed... Just...
Fact is: science (i.e.: critical logical step-wise thinking and peer review) is responsible for literally EVERYTHING around us now. Please: you can have your own private spirituality, but as an absolute stand-alone basis for life, to the exclusion of knowledge and fact? Nope. Those sad days died out in oh... 1900 or so. (Some, of course, still cling to it, but what does that say about their state of mind?) It was the beginning of the end for mental stagnation and beloved illiteracy.
Tom, no doubt you think, with a smirk on your face, that you've got me and others here under your thumb. We're your Dancing Bears. You have only to dangle some thoroughly nonsensical idea in front of us, and we'll sit up and bark on cue. And that this will also somehow prove how fallible science and critical thinking is.
Frankly, old buddo, it's us who use you to show off a classic case of Christian dogmatic intransigence. You're the pinnacle of that. The "Everest" if you choose.... This is obvious to so many readers here, the ones who just might be on the fence about their once-unwavering but scientifically illiterate faith. A few have even DM'd me and thanked us technically literate atheists for at least piquing their curiosity as to the truth. I couldn't honestly ask for anything more! It's been very satisfying, frankly. So.....
Thank you. Keep it up. Those "chips" are on the way!
The two links above are good, but they aren't going to help support your point of view. Messner and Habeler were highly experienced mountain climbers (really big mountains), and spent a great deal of time training as well as a lot of time gradually acclimating. They were well prepared.
Regarding Ararat and NAMI, were the Japanese highly experienced and prepared mountain climbers? It doesn't really appear they were dressed or equipped for such a climb.
Well the two links I gave should support my view. Because if you believe as some here on this post would suggest. That such a climb without oxygen is (IMPOSSIBLE). That belief of course is shown to be nothing more then fiction. Also, regular climbs are made all the time to the top of Mt. Ararat and without the use of oxygen. To suggest that the team from China could not even make it to the 12,500 foot level is total nonsense. In recent days one man who made it to the very top of the mountain is 59 years old. And his conditioning for the climb was nothing more than two weeks of swimming and repeatedly climbing a 1,000 foot hillside. He had no formal trainning in mountain climbing. It's obvious you do not have to be a highly experienced climber to climb to the top of Ararat. And that would make sense. Because the animals that left the ark were not experienced climbers either.
Last edited by Campbell34; 02-12-2011 at 12:27 PM..
Tom inadvertently absolutely confirms my claims with his link:
You didn't read your own link, did you? No, you don't ignore science, you selectively quote-mine it, without considering the full story. Ever wonder what a parrot-head looks and sounds like, folks?
If you'd read your own link ,and then thought about it, even briefly, you'd have caught that the participants trained for months, and high elevations. Did your Chinese tourists do this? Do they look like trained mountaineers?
As NB so clearly observes and then points out here:
(No duhhh, NB, you got it right on! But, just for clarity: these felons are Chinese, not Japanese. I'm sure the Japanese would not want to be implicated in this SCAM in any way )
Tom points us to one or two climbers doing what medical and high-altitude specialists had decided was almost impossible, that the amount of oxygen available to the body is generally insufficient to accomplish what was necessary. They also note that, at the levels of oxygen at high altitudes, the climber, even a well-trained one, could only walk at a very s..l....o........w .......pace. As we see in any related videos.
Like: take a step .................................................. .take another step..............................and another............ (pant pant pant...) etc. etc.
Not ecstatically group hugging and dancing around. Nope.
But then, HUZ-zah!!, Praise the Lord! Tom magically (and there's no other good word here) applies it to everyone. Him, me, the Chinese tourists, men, women, anyone who wants to climb in a very low oxygen environment.
What's absolutely fascinating here, Tom, is how you always come up with an excuse, always by conflating and comparing one-off unique situations that apply to very well trained and also medically monitored people with a group of folks who need stability hiking poles to walk on flat, level dry ground.
You've done this with the source of magic water for your imagined global flood, to imagined 4000 yr old DNA in 13 million-year old fossils, for how noah got all the necessary animals on-board and kept htem alive, for literally any and every biblical fable.
[BTW, and I hate to correct you on something you're supposed to be the expert on here: God didn't write the bible. A bunch of very biased but illiterate prophets did. I'm surprised you didn't know this! Wow!]
As a no-fooling alternative to Tom's over-simplified one-off situations, which in this case had a medical monitoring and follow-up team in attendance, do read this, folks (not you, Tom; it would be too upsetting for you...)
Full hematological adaptation to high altitude is achieved when the increase of red blood cells reaches a plateau and stops. After that period, the subject below extreme altitude [5,500 metres (18,000 ft)] is able to perform his activities as if he were at sea level.
(Now, if Tom were presenting this, here's where he would stop, and would post it as PROOF that anyone could, indeed, do anything at high elevations. However, let's continue reading, shall we?)
The length of full hematological adaptation can be approximated by multiplying the altitude in kilometers by 11.4 days. For example, to adapt to 4,000 metres (13,000 ft) of altitude would require around 46 days.[17] However, no length of adaptation can allow humans to permanently live above 5,950 metres (19,520 ft).[7]
So from this, we can easily calculate how long our adroit touristas had to have acclimatized for:
Altitude in km X 11.4 days [12,5000 ft = 3846m = 3.846km)
Undt zoh, (ahem...) acclimatization time, in DAYS = 43.84 days.
Hmmm... going back that far, these apparently well-trained and ultra-athletic touristas, on their driven Quest For God's Boat, were still snug back in their offices in Singapore.
Prediction: Tom will of course have a clever (but useless) come-back here.
______________________________________
I do, I'll admit it, find this morbidly amusing; that fundy Christians can so easily be goaded into a predictable demonstration of their huge technical illiteracy, their complete inability to see the obvious and the readily apparent, and their all-consuming faith in the truly impossible. Then, when this is pointed out, they denounce "science", as though it were some sort of demon.
(Well, of course, in a way, that is true for them: Truth is the anti-Christ...)
What's even morehypocritical is that when they need it, they will suddenly befriend the science demon by selectively quote-mining parts of it (carbon dating is suddenly A-OK; geology does prove such-and-such; physiological studies apparently prove anyone can scamper up Everest without oxygen.)
Yada yada yada. Absolutely no skeptical, critical thinking or consideration of any consequences or alternate scenarios allowed... Just...
Fact is: science (i.e.: critical logical step-wise thinking and peer review) is responsible for literally EVERYTHING around us now. Please: you can have your own private spirituality, but as an absolute stand-alone basis for life, to the exclusion of knowledge and fact? Nope. Those sad days died out in oh... 1900 or so. (Some, of course, still cling to it, but what does that say about their state of mind?) It was the beginning of the end for mental stagnation and beloved illiteracy.
Tom, no doubt you think, with a smirk on your face, that you've got me and others here under your thumb. We're your Dancing Bears. You have only to dangle some thoroughly nonsensical idea in front of us, and we'll sit up and bark on cue. And that this will also somehow prove how fallible science and critical thinking is.
Frankly, old buddo, it's us who use you to show off a classic case of Christian dogmatic intransigence. You're the pinnacle of that. The "Everest" if you choose.... This is obvious to so many readers here, the ones who just might be on the fence about their once-unwavering but scientifically illiterate faith. A few have even DM'd me and thanked us technically literate atheists for at least piquing their curiosity as to the truth. I couldn't honestly ask for anything more! It's been very satisfying, frankly. So.....
Thank you. Keep it up. Those "chips" are on the way!
Really rifleman, you should of been a used car salesman. They often do a lot of talking to cover their mistakes. The fact is people climb Mt. Ararat all the time. And it is the kind of mountain that does not require you to be an experienced Mountain climber. Just not that long ago a 59 year old man made it to the top of the mountain. And he himself had no mountain climbing experience. And his only trainning was two weeks of swimming and climbing a 1,000 foot hillside by his home. I'm sure if he could make it to the very top of that 17,000 foot mountain without oxygen, the younger team from China could reach the 12,500 foot level. Or, maybe you believe their is an invisible force that would keep the NAMI from reaching that altitude. From everything I am reading, there is a good chance that two old guys like you and I could even make it to the top. To keep pushing the belief that the NAMI could not reach the 12,500 foot level is pretty much nonsense rifleman, and you will appear foolish to keep suggesting such.
Last edited by Campbell34; 02-12-2011 at 12:53 PM..
See! I told you he'd come bouncing back with an unrelated answer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
Really rifleman, you should of been a used car salesman. They often do a lot of talking to cover their mistakes. The fact is people climb Mt. Ararat all the time. And it is the kind of mountain that does not require you to be an experienced Mountain climber. Just not that long ago a 59 year old man made it to the top of the mountain. And he himself had no mountain climbing experience. And his only trainning was two weeks of swimming and climbing a 1,000 foot hillside by his home. I'm sure if he could make it to the very top of that 17,000 foot mountain without oxygen, the younger team from China could reach the 12,500 foot level. Or, maybe you believe their is an invisible force that would keep the NAMI from reaching that altitude. From everything I am reading, there is a good chance that two old guys like you and I could even make it to the top. To keep pushing the belief that the NAMI could not reach the 12,500 foot level is pretty much nonsense rifleman, and you will appear foolish to keep suggesting such.
You are so predictable. Thanks again for making my point! (BTW, even a good used car salesman can't sell a beater that's leaking it's fluids all over the buyer's foot, as your late model clunker is doing...)
And, to set the record straight; I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to just get there. Never said that. I did say that that:
√ they were obviously never there, equipped as they were, and;
√ they certainly didn't/couldn't have done the things they claim to have done...
√ in the time they said they spent (less than one day on site), and
√ under the weather conditions they said they "endured".
Don't avoid or confuse the issues with false science or partial quotes or downright prevarication.
Making it to the top of Ararat as your only goal, versus taking a group of inexperienced, totally non-acclimatized touristas (did you not see them getting out of that van? And did they all swim for a month? Nope.) up there for a half day "expedition", then accomplishing everything they say they did, and then making the ABSOLUTE CLAIM that they had indeed ["we're almost 100% sure! So... send money soon!"] found The Ark, is quite another matter.
Someone doing it one slow, step at a time, versus all the effort to clamber about, unropped & thus unsecured, in an previously unexplored ice cave? (BTW, did your Ararat topper not carry any Oxygen? Link? Proof? It is, after all, into the so-called death zone elevation. And did he go in a windbreaker, with a drooping half-empty backpack on his back? Photos?
The one guy I easily found was Muhammed Oraz, an experienced climber who did indeed scale Ararat, but with oxygen. His non-oxygen climbs were on other peaks. Another link perhaps? Another guy? Let me/us inquisitive types know so we can read all about it. Still doesn't apply to an entire inexperienced group, who then also did a complete site review and documentation in windbreakers.... what a laugh. Truly)
Well anyhow, you know all my points, and of course you won't begin to address them on a point-by-point basis, and we all know why.
Thanks. You next demo scheduled for? Later this afternoon? I'll be waiting, and let's not forget the general audience. They're waiting too.
Here's a link showing the response of Tom's so-called supportive Turkish authorities:
"It is not hundred percent sure it's the Ark, but we think it is 99.9 percent," [Chinese documentary member] Yeung told the Turkish Anadolu agency.
Despite the enthusiasm of the premises and claims of the documentary, the Turkish scientific community has been skeptical about the "discovery."
"To have a boat at that point, the world ought to be covered with water. There's never been a time when the world has been covered with water to a height of 4,000 meters," said Orhan Bingol, a professor of archeology.
Necmi Karul, professor of prehistory at the University of Istanbul, wields the same arguments and adds that "Mount Ararat was not covered by water 4,800 years ago, and the story of Noah's Ark rests on only tourism interests."
The entire story is here, with references to the Chinese documentary "team":
And this next paragraph is also of technical interest (my underlines as particularly relevant to Tom's errant argument):
One Everest survivor, who has ironically criticized one guide for not utilizing oxygen, has recently suggested the banning of its use as a way to limit the traffic on the mountain. But if safety is the issue then such a recommendation is surely misplaced.
If the statistics are to be trusted, mountaineers that forego the use of supplemental oxygen on their summit day sustain a much higher chance of not returning.
Without oxygen, the average roundtrip summit climb (outside a handful of elite climbers) has been shown to be significantly longer, and exposure to hypoxia greater. Further, how could such an edict be enforced? The idea of an oxygen police patrolling the high peaks is particularly bizarre.
I'm glad to see that their "Professional guide, "Parachute" Ertugrul, had their overall safety in mind here
(Remind me to never use him though...)
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm having trouble breathing this stinky stuff in!
, 
See! I told you he'd come bouncing back with an unrelated answer!
