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1. What you are calling 'good' behavior for yourself, isnt based on an absolute objective moral set of standards is it ? Sounds like you appealed to a consensus of people (whos standard is moral relativism) ... how can you draw anything absolute from that ?
Wow, you're really not paying attention are you? I'm arguing that there is no such thing as absolute morality. Why would I then try to claim that *my* moral code comes from some absolute source?
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Originally Posted by 007.5
2. Ive already addressed your second quiery in a previous rebuttal post.
Did you? I must have missed it.
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Originally Posted by 007.5
3. What is YOUR personal moral code based on ? If its based on moral relativism, then are you going to grant someone else their moral relativism who may believe that calling your mother a very degrading name , is being percieved as accurate and correct by the Person who is being vocal ?
Why would I care what someone calls my mother? This has no impact on my, or her, life. I've already told you that my moral code is based on treating people in a manner consistent with the way I would like to be treated. That is, by definition, relative.
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Originally Posted by 007.5
4. You dont have to live the same exact lifestyle that i did when i wanted to be a proclaimed atheist ; there is objective proof that the atheistic construct of moral relativism IS played out among atheists resulting in less favorable outcomes versus their Theist / Christian counterparts : Are Atheists and Theists Morally Equivalent?
But, you claim that your behavior was a direct result of your "atheist lifestyle". Thus, if I also live an "atheist lifestyle", my morality should align closely with yours at that time. The point I was trying to make was you weren't living an "atheist lifestyle", you were just an *******. There. Is. No. Atheist. Lifestyle.
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Originally Posted by 007.5
5. If moral relativism is really true, then there is no objective difference between a Mother Theresa and a Hitler , for, it would be a just a matter of ones opinion. And many would side with Hitler for his efforts at trying to make 'a better' society thru ethnic 'cleansing' . Afterall, isnt this survival of the fittest atheistic ideology whereby the stronger is beneficial (?) .
And I'm sure many of Hitler's followers thought he was right/just/whatever. Is that not proof that morality IS relative? Again, just because the majority finds his actions immoral (myself included), does equal evidence of absolute morality. Consensus does not equal objectivity, again.
There are a plethera of religions or philosophies you can embark on....so, what is going to be the standard for determining which is the true one ? When you lay them all out , side by side, it will help you decide by discovering :
1. Which has the best historical evidences, both religious and secular .
2. Which is the one that our modern physical Sciences are pointing to based on discovered detectable design and razor edge precise engineering of our Cosmos , incl. Earth.
3. Which are the ones whos Leader not only claimed to be a prophet of God, but who made incredible claims to be THE Creator of the cosmos and final judge to all mankind . And how did he go about offering proof of that , as recorded by eye witness testimony and contemporaries of these events ?
4. Did any of them make many foretold exact predictions which came true hundreds of years later in just one person ...and, of Rulers, Cities, and historical events that took place precisely as foretold ?
5. Which one fully deals with the common problem to all of mankind .. that being personal sin in light of a very holy righteous and just Creator ?
I think having these logical standards will get you to the true one to follow and patern your life by . If you disagree, what would be some better form of standard to help you in your discovery ?
You know, I would go back and forth with you on all these points, but after some 20 years of being a die-hard Christian and using these SAME arguments and almost 10 years of being an agnostic theist and KNOWING all of these arguments, knowing how they are used by Christians and NOW how to refute them all, it bores me to some degree so I'll pass.
What a person does not believe in , also has a direct bearing on ones behaviour
No. It does not. Again you are mistaking correlation with causation. If I do not believe something then it will not affect my behavior. It might FAIL to affect my behavior which you may be mistaking as it being an affect, but the two are massively different.
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Originally Posted by 007.5
you must have some objective higher standard by which you are basing your judgement on
No, I never claimed to. Again putting words in my mouth. I heartily believe that morals are subjective, and no objective standard exists. More on that here.
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Originally Posted by 007.5
As for using the 'F' word fluently and in public, it was part of my moral relativistic philosophy
My point exactly. Thank you. It was part of YOUR philosophy. Yours. Not mine. Not atheisms. Not Santas. Yours. Well done on getting the point at last. Now if you would just realise this is true of ALL the character flaws you described you will be on the path to understanding.
rflmn, sans, hooligan, et al: Join me in reminding the thick headed one: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ATHEIST IDEOLOGY!
No matter what you say or how many times you repeat yourself, you are still wrong.
For someone who advertises he is a Mensa , you are really lacking in your understanding. Again, and I hope for the last time....The way One looks at their worldview , humanity, moral standards, ethical standards, etc.... has a direct bearing on how that person lives.
Example of no Creator ideology (atheism) : No God = No ultimate Moral Accountability = Liberal and Immoral Lifestyles are permissable and not objectively wrong to engage in. And this is exactly what we all see going on around us today .
You know, I would go back and forth with you on all these points, but after some 20 years of being a die-hard Christian and using these SAME arguments and almost 10 years of being an agnostic theist and KNOWING all of these arguments, knowing how they are used by Christians and NOW how to refute them all, it bores me to some degree so I'll pass.
You shouldnt have let apathy get the better of you . But i do appreciate your revealing candor.
So who get's to be the authority on who is and isn't a real Christian, 00? You? Me? The Pope? Who is it?
Certainly not you or I , society, popular opinion, or a Prison Poll ..... but rather, the absolute truth source called The Bible ---- an objective independent Source that rightly divides truth from error .
Example of no Creator ideology (atheism) : No God = No ultimate Moral Accountability = Liberal and Immoral Lifestyles are permissable and not objectively wrong to engage in.
Wrong again. There is no such causal link. A person who thinks there is no god MAY reach the conclusion that bad lifestyles are ok, but he will do so independent of anything to do with atheism itself.
There are just as many atheists who have arguments for why certain lifestyles are undesirable. The only difference between you and them is that they do not need to invent a god to justify their position. They are perfectly able to argue their position on their own without pretending there is an all powerful warrior fighting in the corner for them. People who appeal to god in moral matters are to me just saying "I want people to do X and since I can not think of any good argument for X on my own, I will invent a god and pretend it agrees with me."
Wow, you're really not paying attention are you? I'm arguing that there is no such thing as absolute morality. Why would I then try to claim that *my* moral code comes from some absolute source?
Did you? I must have missed it.
Why would I care what someone calls my mother? This has no impact on my, or her, life. I've already told you that my moral code is based on treating people in a manner consistent with the way I would like to be treated. That is, by definition, relative.
But, you claim that your behavior was a direct result of your "atheist lifestyle". Thus, if I also live an "atheist lifestyle", my morality should align closely with yours at that time. The point I was trying to make was you weren't living an "atheist lifestyle", you were just an *******. There. Is. No. Atheist. Lifestyle.
And I'm sure many of Hitler's followers thought he was right/just/whatever. Is that not proof that morality IS relative? Again, just because the majority finds his actions immoral (myself included), does equal evidence of absolute morality. Consensus does not equal objectivity, again.
In this post you say there is no absolute morality (laws/values, etc..) , yet in a previous post you say that you do believe there are absolute moral laws ; which is it and is it based on how you feel at any given time ?
Certainly not you or I , society, popular opinion, or a Prison Poll ..... but rather, the absolute truth source called The Bible ---- an objective independent Source that rightly divides truth from error .
The usual circular argument. The bible says it's true and so it must be. Sorry, that doesn't fly with me. The bible is full of errors and it is certainly not a moral compass for the masses that's for sure.
How can you read the bible and gloss over the glaring moral gaps, then make excuses for why god allowed such horrible things like raping women and killing babies? How can a moral, ethical person look at that and not question the very basis of it? How can you sit there and tell us that useless book is absolute truth?
You are severely deluded if you cannot see what that book really is...words written by men to control mankind.
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