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LOL...I don't think you realize the folks you are dealing with in this thread. Some of us were once STAUNCH Christians who could debate with the best of them. We once said a lot of the same things you are saying right now. We believed them (no matter our doubts) and really believed we were believing and doing the right things. So, you're not talking to novices (well, at least not me). I know the corporate answers, explanations, objections, arguments and so on. I've been there, done it and bought a few bibles along the way.
As for my decision, I am quite comfortable in the one I made. I am VERY confident about it and at greater peace now than I was in all the years I was a Christian. Contrary to what YOU may think about us atheists/agnostics, I don't do drugs, I am not a hedonists, I don't do wild parties, I rarely drink (and when I do, it is limited to 2 MILD mixed drinks), don't run up and down with tons of women, don't engage in reckless behavior and generally, quite conservative in how I live. I treat people with respect, I obey laws and I shun and HATE violence. None of these things are done because of fear or bribes of gods. It's just me. Simple as that.
Now there may be atheists out there doing all of the above, but you cannot just simply conclude their actions are ONLY based on the idea that they are that way just because they don't believe in YOUR god. Their "morals" may derive from their society, their homes, their personal preferences. Heck, you have Christians sometimes doing far worse and they are supposed to be sitting right next to god's throne.
Some day I may bore you with the details of my deconversion which are all over these religious forums.
What made you a staunch Christian ?
You are to be commended for your list of healthy moral choices listed...but have you used Gods name in vain, swore, looked down upon a minority, lusted in your heart when looking at a woman other than your wife, told a lie , been unethical with anyone, fudged some numbers so it would benefit you , been self centered, been decieving ... or, would rather believe that Nothing created our Cosmos (complete with 150+ life enabling constants and precise Physics Constants fine tuned to the 120th decimal point critical tolerance) instead of a personal willful Design Engineer ?
How did your de-conversion come about and i wouldnt be bored at hearing the specific reasons . Perhaps youd like to hear my de-conversion reasons from staunch atheism sometime (?)
Yes. It is. You are making claims and when asked to substantiate them you drop stock excuses like "You have to find out for yourself".
Either you can back up what you say.... or you can not. It is one or the other. Given your inability to do so so far, I suspect the latter.
You can harp on all day about peoples biases but this does not change the fact that when asked to back up what you say... you come up empty.
Atheists make claims that there is no supernatural Creator (defaulting to no Creator required) without a shred of evidence for natural / materialistic causes .
Its best if you find out for yourself by doing some clicking of your keyboard...that way it *might have more of a truth impact versus someone doing the work for you . It will also prove that you are serious, diligent, and arent just making the same lame excuses for pretending Nothing gave us our Universe. It will be a good experience for you instead of playing the charade game that 'I just dont see any evidence' .
Thruout the course of this thread, i have given specific scientific evidences that a personal theistic Creator/Designer/Sustainer has and is at work and if you didnt like them, then adjust your personal philosophical bias which is excuse-fueled . ... or, just wait for the time of your pre-scheduled meeting with your Creator whom youve wanted to shun all your life . The choice is yours...not mine.
Atheists make claims that there is no supernatural Creator
What has this got to do with anything? You are deflecting now by trying to change the subject to other people. If someone makes a claim that you want to hear the evidence for.... then ASK them for the evidence for it. That is your job, not mine. Take it up with them, not me.
On THIS thread however YOU are making the claims and YOU are not backing them up and YOU are copping out of backing them up when asked. And now you are copping out by changing the subject to other people.
This "find out for yourself" cop out does not wash. You made the claims. Can you back them up? Yes or no? If yes, do so. If no, then stop pretending like you can and making excuses for why you wont.
...or, would rather believe that Nothing created our Cosmos (complete with 150+ life enabling constants and precise Physics Constants fine tuned to the 120th decimal point critical tolerance) instead of a personal willful Design Engineer ?...
Why do you insist on willfully misrepresenting the position of non-creationists?
Atheists make claims that there is no supernatural Creator (defaulting to no Creator required) without a shred of evidence for natural / materialistic causes .
Its best if you find out for yourself by doing some clicking of your keyboard...that way it *might have more of a truth impact versus someone doing the work for you . It will also prove that you are serious, diligent, and arent just making the same lame excuses for pretending Nothing gave us our Universe. It will be a good experience for you instead of playing the charade game that 'I just dont see any evidence' .
Thruout the course of this thread, i have given specific scientific evidences that a personal theistic Creator/Designer/Sustainer has and is at work and if you didnt like them, then adjust your personal philosophical bias which is excuse-fueled . ... or, just wait for the time of your pre-scheduled meeting with your Creator whom youve wanted to shun all your life . The choice is yours...not mine.
We have empirical and measurable evidence that supports the Big Bang and abiogenesis, but not yet proof.
How do you justify a "supernatural" cause as the default position with no evidence to back it up?
What has this got to do with anything? You are deflecting now by trying to change the subject to other people. If someone makes a claim that you want to hear the evidence for.... then ASK them for the evidence for it. That is your job, not mine. Take it up with them, not me.
On THIS thread however YOU are making the claims and YOU are not backing them up and YOU are copping out of backing them up when asked. And now you are copping out by changing the subject to other people.
This "find out for yourself" cop out does not wash. You made the claims. Can you back them up? Yes or no? If yes, do so. If no, then stop pretending like you can and making excuses for why you wont.
I dont back up claims to people who are apathetic at their core , which is the makeup of an atheist. If you were an honest , diligent , seeking person...youd be calling yourself an agnostic or a Seeker, but you are not. Youve got your mind made up that you want to stay an atheist regardless of the evidence.
Ive backed up the evidence numerous times in this thread and im not wasting my time and energy for your uninterested persona . Youve got a nerve expecting people to cater to your every whimsical desire ------- do some research yourself if youre so interested. IF not, im not bothered by your decision to play the atheist charade. Yes, find out for yourself since its for YOUR benefit. Stop being lazy , apathetic, and making excuses for not looking . Thats the making of a charade playing lowlife.
We have empirical and measurable evidence that supports the Big Bang and abiogenesis, but not yet proof.
How do you justify a "supernatural" cause as the default position with no evidence to back it up?
Thank you for admitting an atheistic worldview/origins is without proof.
I dont have a 'default' position... thats what atheists have by saying 'no personal Creator' (defaulting to Naturalism) How do you justify a naturalistic cause for the beginning of our space-time Cosmos as the default position with no evidence to back it up ?.
Why do you insist on willfully misrepresenting the position of non-creationists?
I dont. I was a non creationist for 10 years so i know what i say now is not a misrepresentation . Perhaps its a case of you not knowing why it is being represented fairly . Were you ever a Creationist ?
Thank you for admitting an atheistic worldview/origins is without proof.
I never claimed there was proof and no intellectually honest person ever would. I have claimed there is hard evidence, however. Something that creationism does NOT have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5
I dont have a 'default' position... thats what atheists have by saying 'no personal Creator' (defaulting to Naturalism)
You DO have a default position. You're saying "You can't prove the universe was created naturally, so God did it!". That's defaulting to supernatural causes with zero evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5
How do you justify a naturalistic cause for the beginning of our space-time Cosmos as the default position with no evidence to back it up ?.
There IS evidence. That's why I believe in naturalistic causes of our known universe over supernatural causes. I would have thought that would be VERY clear at this point in the discussion.
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