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What do you think the plausible method of space travel would be if we were to inhabit another planet?
Plausibility is relative.
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Originally Posted by jdaelectro
We are a very young species in the galactic timeline. This is a "fact" taught by the old universe pushers. There should be many other mature beings roaming the cosmos. Yet they evade us.
Of course they do.
A benevolent civilization would never interfere with an immature civilization.
It would be both immoral and unethical.
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Originally Posted by jdaelectro
If the universe is billions of years old and has many life sustaining planets then surely we would know by now.
Not necessarily.
You seem to be confusing intra-stellar travel with interstellar travel and inter-galactic travel. They are not the same thing.
We are not presently capable of intra-stellar travel. We have been to our own Moon, but not to another planet in our system.
The ability to travel between systems (interstellar travel) does not logically imply that one can travel between galaxies.
And even if a species were capable of intergalactic space travel, given shear number of galaxies, it might be a few billion years before the reach our region in space.
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Originally Posted by jdaelectro
Don't you think our galaxy alone would be littered with artifacts from these advanced societies?
Probably.
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Originally Posted by jdaelectro
Wouldn't this mean every species started evolving at the same time?
No. Galaxies form at different times. If what Crick and Watson say is true, then you'd only find life in older galaxies that have lots of G and K Class stars.
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Originally Posted by jdaelectro
Why isn't there a dominant species roaming the galaxy?
Ever hear of a Nova or Super Nova? Such an event would destroy life at great distances from the origin of the event.
Most say the Earth will end when our Sun turns into a Red Giant and engulfs the Earth, but long before that happens, a nearby star will nova/super nova and kill most, if not all life on Earth.
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Originally Posted by Voyageur
No.
Star systems form at different times. Our own, approximately 4.55 billion years old, is far younger than the oldest known star in the Milky Way (approximately 13.2 billion years old). Even arguing that the first star systems would have lacked the heavy elements that make up the bulk of the planets/moons in our solar system, those elements were present in sufficient quantities billions of years before our own solar system formed. And, of course, star systems have continued to form since the beginning of our own.
And all this merely speaks to the formation of planetary systems -- there is no reason to think that life would necessarily occur/develop at similar rates even in very similar planetary systems. There's nothing special about our system that would have precluded the rise of complex, sentient life a billion years before it happened, or a billion years after. A coment, an asteroid, or a nearby supernova can change things suddenly. And when a particularly critical mutation might first occur and then survive long enough to spread through out a species is not fixed, either -- could be sooner, could be later.
Yes, all good points.
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Originally Posted by Terryj
It all has to do with location, location, location, our solar system is stuck out in an obscure location on a spiral arm of our galaxy.
That's true too. In young galaxies, and also young star systems, stars go nova faster (because they are typically blue or white).
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Originally Posted by lkb0714
We have not developed the technology yet to visit or even contact other civilizations in the 14 billions years we have had, so why would they be any more advanced that we are?
We haven't had 14 Billion years. Modern humans have only been around about 30,000 years.
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Originally Posted by orogenicman
Forget about velocity. The hard radiation that exists outside of the Earth's magnetosphere will kill any humans trying to make the long journey.
That's what shielding is for.
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Originally Posted by Trackwatch
How is this crew going to deal with 45 years in a spacecraft?
Some form of Suspended animation?
Hibernation might be better.
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Originally Posted by Fillmont
The number isn't limiting or restrictive. It is the minimum age of the universe. It is possible it is indeed much older. But at the very minimum, it is 13 billion years old.
That's only because we cannot see farther than that. Build a better, bigger Hubble (and do it right the first time) and we'll be able to "see" farther, and if the universe is older, we'll know that.
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Originally Posted by Asheville Native
Perhaps the universe is actually crowded with species roaming the stars. They just avoid primitive waring cultures that cling to the ancient superstitions.
Yes, indeed. Again, a truly benevolent civilization would never interfere with a immature species or civilization.
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Originally Posted by QuixoticHobbit
Yet, he has to flood the entire world to kill of a few mortals, and be born as a mortal, grow to adulthood and get nailed to a cross in order to forgive same mortals. Go figure.
Good points, not to mention this supposedly intelligent, benevolent and omnipotent Yahweh god thing chose to have a contest between two brothers, knowing the outcome of the contest in advance, and knowing that one brother would kill the other, precisely because of the outcome of the contest (which Yahweh knew in advance).
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Originally Posted by jdaelectro
I admitted no such thing.
Actually you did.
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Originally Posted by jdaelectro
Right. When it conflicts. I believe scripture can be and is synonymous with logic and reason to a large extent.
It is neither logical nor reasonable to conclude that snakes talk.
hey buddy I'm trying to relax the atmosphere, even more sometimes the reality eludes the obvious, then, is all well and good to remember that here we are philosophising
Mmm' kay? I am already relaxed. You just said that every opinion is debatable, like it was somehow not obvious and a great revelation.
Is there really such a thing as a YEC'er? And they truly believe the Earth is 5,000 -8,000 years old? Let me help all of you out here - it's mistranslations and misunderstandings of the Jewish bible that cause these folks to exist.
Yes, the Jewish bible (I would say accurately) pegs the Earth to be exactly 5,772 years old. A simple reading of the Torah will demonstrate those years to be correct. However, where we're unclear, is how "long' each of the first 6 days of creation took.
In simple terms, it could be that day's 1-6 of creation took (by how we calculate a year in our time) millions or billions of years. And then when day 7 arrived (Shabbos), the normal clock began ticking - and that day was 5,772 years ago. Actually, last September when we celebrated Rosh Hashana, THAT was exactly 5,772 years after the first Shabbos. Jews wish the world a "happy birthday" every year on the first day of Rosh Hashana.
Sorry folks, but no amount of science, or even religion for that matter, is going to clarify for you how long the first 6 days of creation took. If the Torah and 3,300 years of Jews can't clarify that for you, there's simply no way you're going to figure it out on your own.
OMG. Forget the Jewish or any other Bible. What physical/geologic/astronomic evidence is that that the terrestrial day on Earth has changed in the past compared to today to an extent that would affect a 4.5 billion year old planet, making it appear to be only 5,772 years old? Your argument lacks any credibiity. Sorry, I cannot be kind about this? Do you honestly believe that bronze age goat herders got it right while modern man has it all wrong?
OMG. Forget the Jewish or any other Bible. What physical/geologic/astronomic evidence is that that the terrestrial day on Earth has changed in the past compared to today to an extent that would affect a 4.5 billion year old planet, making it appear to be only 5,772 years old? Your argument lacks any credibiity. Sorry, I cannot be kind about this? Do you honestly believe that bronze age goat herders got it right while modern man has it all wrong?
I was going to send you a PM, but I believe you read that response and got the wrong impression for what he was saying. He was not making an argument for YECism.
In simple terms, it could be that day's 1-6 of creation took (by how we calculate a year in our time) millions or billions of years. And then when day 7 arrived (Shabbos), the normal clock began ticking - and that day was 5,772 years ago. Actually, last September when we celebrated Rosh Hashana, THAT was exactly 5,772 years after the first Shabbos. Jews wish the world a "happy birthday" every year on the first day of Rosh Hashana.
What do you mean by this? What happened when "the normal clock began ticking"?
I was going to send you a PM, but I believe you read that response and got the wrong impression for what he was saying. He was not making an argument for YECism.
I think his statement
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Sorry folks, but no amount of science, or even religion for that matter, is going to clarify for you how long the first 6 days of creation took. If the Torah and 3,300 years of Jews can't clarify that for you, there's simply no way you're going to figure it out on your own.
suggests otherwise. If I am wrong, so be it. What I took from it was that he believes in YEC and not only provided his reason for his belief but why any other way to look at the issue is wrong.
I think his statement suggests otherwise. If I am wrong, so be it. What I took from it was that he believes in YEC and not only provided his reason for his belief but why any other way to look at the issue is wrong.
Actually he was in a sense mocking YECs.
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Is there really such a thing as a YEC'er? And they truly believe the Earth is 5,000 -8,000 years old? Let me help all of you out here - it's mistranslations and misunderstandings of the Jewish bible that cause these folks to exist.
That's the only reason they even exist is that these YECers are reading too literally and too much into the relevant passages, resulting in error. He is saying that they are wrong.
What do you mean by this? What happened when "the normal clock began ticking"?
Why silly you! That's when "Chapter Two". Return of Normal Time, Space & Reality, suddenly, and for no good reason other than deceit, kicks in ,when the devout then have to face up to the recorded historical realities of this world.
It's all so very easy if you just assume God both could and did alter the time horizons and rates simply so that a wildly improbable biblical account, which is patently faulty on so many other levels, was somehow magically (and that is the only word that adequately describes...) in effect.
This also doesn't quite jive, as it were, with any of all the other hundreds (if not thousands...) of religions. Not to mention that other old bug-bear no Christian will openly address here: Why all the biblical "factual" discrepancies with those other cultures' accurate and very detailed (and far more educated and "scientific"!!!) well-preserved historical accounts, such as the Chinese or Japanese, whose cultures preceded the Middle Eastern Biblical times.
No globally inundating floods, no singular monotheistic Gods, no mass magic healings, no water-into-wine, no huge alterations of the basic time dimensions; none of that silliness to which the easily manipulated subscribe solely to protect their wild fantasy world and desperate assumption of a heavenly afterlife (the real reason for all o this, IMHO..).
the only reason they even exist is that these YECers are reading too literally and too much into the relevant passages, resulting in error. He is saying that they are wrong.
Yes, that is what I'm trying to say. It's mistranslations of the Torah that drives the YEC'ers. No sane rational person would say the earth is ACTUALLY 5772 years old. But there is a way to satisfy the literal reading of the written Torah (which does say 5772) by also using the benefit of the discussions in the Oral Torah, i.e. the Talmud, where for the last 2,000 years Jewish scholars knew what mainstream scholars did not, that the Earth is very very old, and it's the first 6 days of creation, which are calculated in the 5772 years, that are the key to this discussion, but can also be rectified with the billions of years old idea.
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