Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That's not what the data seems to indicate. And it's definately not what my (admittedly anecdotal and unprovable) experience tells me.
What data?
Rifleman's post earlier put out plainly how the mind can be duped and he is as sceptical as I am. If you need to believe in an afterlife to make it through the day, go for it. Your beliefs however do not constitute fact.
Without going into too much detail, we have a pretty good idea of how the brain works and these feelings of euphoria. dreams etc. are all pretty much known what causes them.
My own experience regarding dreams (which is the same as NDE's) I always awaken from them and I am in the process of waking up when they happen. They all appear to have a long time frame. When your subconscious yields to the conscious part of your brain, these visions and/or dreams occur. While you are in deep sleep, just like it is when you are awake, you do not have to think about breathing, it just happens w/o any conscious effort. Of course you can wilfully choose not to breathe till you pass out and if that happens, the auto part will take over again. Your sense of hearing and smell is still active when you sleep and these can trigger images/memories (dreams)
When you are under 25ish, dreams are dramatic. The brain only fully matures at 25 something. My dreams as a teen were anything from OOBE's, to detail recall of events that really happened or predictive dreams (waiting in anticipation to go fishing etc.). At 53 my dreams are mostly garbage and my body wakes me up to go pee. My dreams are influenced by memories of preceding day(s) and then the mind makes up a story which I generally cannot remember or give credence to. Perhaps at my age, the brain is not replenishing brain cells that die. I have lost memories I know I should have but I have had minor brain trauma in two accidents. For example, I have absolutely no recall of Gr 6 and most of Gr 7 no matter how I try, they just are not there. On FB we have a junior school page and folk there tell me of stuff I did and I strike a blank, no penny drop or ah ha moments yet I can remember stuff clearly prior to those years.
For example, in much of SE Asia where Theravada view is predominate, the practice of animsim is included (not to mention a wide variety of ghosts most westerners have never heard of), even though it has nothing to do with Buddhism. Why? Because animism is deeply engrained in the culture. There are other variations as well. All of them feel what they believe is true. And like other religions, when you have so many different variations..... People make things up and add their own personal twists to the whole thing.
To comment, I think animisim contaminates some Buddistic practices because humans by nature, want to succeed, make progress and avoid mishaps. So a search for a support to fulfil their needs has become a ritual. Strict Buddhism may not be fulfilling all their needs because the Buddha is not like the God by their definition and is not around anymore to provide them with their wishes. I'm not saying those who practise Buddhism do not get help from higher beings as they do get help from those who are still around although the Buddha is no longer there. Animistic practices ask for help from lower beings of the parallel world by making sacrafices and such.
In Thailand, I'd say most of the staunch Buddhists feel it's wrong to kill and eat animals like cattle, chickens, etc. and yet many have no problem buying meat, rationalizing that it's okay because it was dead when they bought it. No sense in just letting it go to waste. On the other hand it's okay to kill and eat fish and other kinds of seafood, and no problem killing mosquitoes, centipedes, flies, ants, spiders, water bugs, scorpions, etc., not to mention snakes, rats, pigs, farm-raised crocodiles, etc. In fact, some of the population in Thailand sell and eat bugs cooked up in a variety of ways (it's not my choice of food though).
This issue has been raised when the Buddha was still around. He had allowed his disciples to eat meat when offered but not to kill the animals themselves or ask their followers to kill animals to provide them with food. Since the disciples of the Buddha have to live on food donated by their followers the Buddha did not want the lay people to bear extra burden by providing them with specially prepared food if they were strict vegetarians and were choosy on their food. This is to help prolonging the survival of the Order.
So while you assume insects can be included in the reincarnation merry-go-round, not everyone agrees. Some sects in India have a view to avoid killing insects. Better not drive any cars. You might kiil an uncle who passed away a few years ago and was reincarnated as a fruit fly. You know how windshields act like bug magnets. So it gets down to whose view is right? People believe whatever they want to believe, even if there's nothing to support it.
Just saying.
There are well documented stories in the Tipitaka, the written documents of the Buddha's teachings, about a disciple who was reborn as a lice in his robes after dying as he was attached to his new robes before dying, and many others alike. It is well known among Buddhists that animals, insects and humans/other beings share the same destination for rebirths depending upon the last thought before they die. Whether you believe it or not, it is a Buddhist philosophy that humans can be reborn as insects.
My own experience regarding dreams (which is the same as NDE's) I always awaken from them and I am in the process of waking up when they happen. They all appear to have a long time frame. When your subconscious yields to the conscious part of your brain, these visions and/or dreams occur. While you are in deep sleep, just like it is when you are awake, you do not have to think about breathing, it just happens w/o any conscious effort. Of course you can wilfully choose not to breathe till you pass out and if that happens, the auto part will take over again. Your sense of hearing and smell is still active when you sleep and these can trigger images/memories (dreams)
.
Dreams can only occur when one is half asleep and never occur when in deep sleep. This has been proved by EEG studies. I'm not sure if NDEs are same as dreams since they could not be half asleep when they were undergoing those experiences. Tactile and visual perceptions are the first sensations to disappear when one is unconscious, followed by auditory and by thoughts as evidenced by EEG tracings.
When asleep we breathe and our heart beats because they were taken over by our autonomic nervous system. In sleep apnoea the breathing becomes shallower until it stops altogether, which triggers the brain when there is oxygen deprivation and the body responds by having an explosive breath. This process is an automation and physiological.
Dreams can only occur when one is half asleep and never occur when in deep sleep. This has been proved by EEG studies. I'm not sure if NDEs are same as dreams since they could not be half asleep when they were undergoing those experiences. Tactile and visual perceptions are the first sensations to disappear when one is unconscious, followed by auditory and by thoughts as evidenced by EEG tracings.
The point I was trying to make is this remembering aspect. The few times I have been under anaesthesia, there was a real time lapse and whatever transpired in that time frame as far as I was concerned was irrelevant. The same goes for sleep and NDE's. The memory side happens while waking up and whatever duration was felt was a few seconds at best. The only analogy I can think of is like trying to start a cold engine. It takes a few tries and then once awake the engine runs.
Quote:
When asleep we breathe and our heart beats because they were taken over by our autonomic nervous system. In sleep apnoea the breathing becomes shallower until it stops altogether, which triggers the brain when there is oxygen deprivation and the body responds by having an explosive breath. This process is an automation and physiological.
And the things that happen here are often accompanied by dreams.
I used to have falling dreams as a youngster and would wake up screaming with my mother rushing in to see what was wrong. In variably I was in a cold sweat. Sleep paralysis also happened and often I slept on my arm and it was "dead" and I could not lift it. We have all experienced this.
I have had two NDE's in the sense that both times I was knocked unconscious and in that time I have absolutely no recall of anything. Both times I was badly concussed. Both times I only remember being resuscitated (woken up no CPR was required) Both times I was in severe pain. Both times I have snippets of memory going to hospital in an ambulance or the local clinic. The brain was trying to reboot and both times the two days following were very disjointed as far as memories went, possibly due to pain killers. Both times I had to undergo anaesthesia, both times I only recall the counting back and then waking up in recovery.
I have copied my post from the other thread (NDE) as it also concerns with your NDE experience.
You're not the only one who have experienced the NDE as you described. In the recent Lancet paper on NDE out of 344 cases only 12% (41) had a core experience and 6% (21) had similar experience as yours, whilst the rest did not have any NDE despite undergoing the same situations.
It may be too premature to jump into conclusions before we do not know how, why and what are the implications of having NDEs.
Atheists are trying to explain how NDEs can be duplicated by stimulating certain areas of brain, like Temporal lobe, to replicate the experience; some used 'God Helmet' to replicate the sensations of meeting with God that some have experienced during their NDEs. They conclude that these NDEs are nothing but the sensations provoked when the brain was insulted with a very stressful condition.
Whilst believers of the God have strengthened their belief after having such NDEs and their sojourn with God, and are defending their beliefs against accusations of the aethiests.
With the available information it is possible that cerebral anoxia/surcharge of electric stimulation can contribute to these sensations to some extent, but it may not be the only factor since considerable number, 282 (92%)out of 344 cases of near death did not have NDEs.
So, the questions of How, Why and What are still unsolved and with these discussions we may come up with plausible answers if we can conpromise and discuss with an open mind, rather than attacking each other.
I may be able to explain these questions to some extent, but will have to use the philosophy of a faith, which atheists will find it hard to accept when they do not believe in life after death. If they can keep aside their beliefs for awhile, I can explain, and then, you can judge it for yourself.
There are lots of things science hasn't discovered yet, but eventually, with time, things will unfold and we will understand more of these, so called mystical phenomenon.
Whilst believers of the God have strengthened their belief after having such NDEs and their sojourn with God, and are defending their beliefs against accusations of the aethiests.
This whole concept of NDE's allegedly proving god exists is pretty lame. The omnimax god that instapoofed all of "creation" into existence is relegated to communication with us only in altered states of consciousness?
What you are expecting is rational thought processes be suspended to afford your premise credulity and that is not what we folk do. It is called special pleading.
Of course I cannot claim to know all the intricacies concerning the human mind but the fact that science has been able to replicate some (if not all) of it shows that whatever folk experience in NDE's are in fact mind generated memories and/or dreams. What I am merely offering as opinion based on my personal observations, these memories happen in the transitional state of waking up. BTW, both my NDE's happened as a believer/theist
Quote:
With the available information it is possible that cerebral anoxia/surcharge of electric stimulation can contribute to these sensations to some extent, but it may not be the only factor since considerable number, 282 (92%)out of 344 cases of near death did not have NDEs.
So should we go with the majority as most likely or do we have to consider 8% which for all intents and purposes have a rational explanation.
Quote:
So, the questions of How, Why and What are still unsolved and with these discussions we may come up with plausible answers if we can conpromise and discuss with an open mind, rather than attacking each other.
There is no attacking, disagreeing means exactly just that. It seems the theists are the ones that take offence.
I follow logic and as far as the existence of god, it either exists or it does not. The bible is shown to be erroneous and cannot be offered as anything authoritative and now we find we are being offered NDE's as "proof". Special pleading for anecdotal "evidence".
Even if there was a god limited to transcendental meditative states to communicate with us, then we should ALL have had some "vision" where we suffered some minor brain trauma and furthermore, the NDE's with recall should all be identical. They are not. There are at best similarities but that hardly constitutes any real curiosity for any detailed scientific research. Even the little that was done came away refuting claims.
Quote:
I may be able to explain these questions to some extent, but will have to use the philosophy of a faith, which atheists will find it hard to accept when they do not believe in life after death. If they can keep aside their beliefs for awhile, I can explain, and then, you can judge it for yourself.
As soon as you enter the faith realm, logic and reason disappear and we have to suspend rationality, again this is special pleading. I once believed there was a god but I was brought up that way. I kind of know the whole faith angle.
Quote:
There are lots of things science hasn't discovered yet, but eventually, with time, things will unfold and we will understand more of these, so called mystical phenomenon.
I wouldn't hold my breath that they will expend energy in this area. One cannot even form a hypothesis to initiate research as there are just too many variables.
It really boils down to this. Why do theists who are so convinced of a better afterlife hold on so tightly to this temporal one? IOW, get sick, go to a doctor for healing instead of simply just choosing to die.
Probably because just like us, they know, this life is all we get, all the rest is mere hope which IMO is a futile endeavour.
" will have to use the philosophy of a faith, which atheists will find it hard to accept"
What atheists find it hard to accept is not life after death, or rebirth or even a god - when there are such astounding things as Black holes, Quantum mechanics and DNA, who knows what else might exist? But find it hard to accept that any argument based on 'philosophy of faith' rather than on any validated evidence is a sound argument for any of those religious claims.
There is absolutely no--zero--evidence that a soul, energy, or any other entity, whatever you call it, exists beyond the death of the organism.
All the claims on the pro-reincarnation side of this debate rely on imaginary beings or concepts and on wishful thinking.
For instance, the idea of human DNA somehow "vibrating" at a certain frequency: if this were the case there would be evidence to support it, but there isn't.
The same is true with every other theory for how reincarnation would work, which, again, would only come into play if there were any evidence that it could even happen.
I encourage people to hew more closely to the evidence and the confines of reality.
And if for some reason you don't like weeklyworldnews, the story is available on many other sites.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
