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4. I believe the tomb of Yuhoshua ben Nun (Moses' predecessor) is also known and open to the public.
Not to be anal - but is it safe to assume you meant Moses' successor, rather than one who preceded him? I wouldn't want anyone to get their chronology mixed up from reading that heh heh!
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Originally Posted by Fred314X
A more basic question: why are these things important? Would it bother you the same way if you didn't know where George Washington was buried?
I think many people are interested in the question because it's only natural to want to confirm claims made by the Bible, given it's spiritual importance to so many people. Whether this colors their faith or not is another issue entirely. You know the old saying: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".
I think Washington is different because he is a recent figure in our history, with plenty of evidence to back up his existence. Good ol' George's historicity is not claimed in just one source, as well. That helps.
Two possibilities in this response:
1- You're clueless about these people.
2- You're in denial.
I'm going to assume the former and tell you, yes there are. Like you, they too, believe in such monstrosities presented as "historical evidence".
Now you know why your beliefs are pushed aside as myths? Even you find similar stories from other belief systems... impossible and purely mythological.
Well, I am in denial; in denial that people actually believed monkeys could carry a mountain and fly.
It is easy for you to say I am clueless about these people. But making derogatory statements about me does not prove you are correct. All I asked was for proof those people really believed flying monkeys could carry a mountain. Since you cannot provide such proof all you can do is denigrate your opponent.
No writer of the ancient manuscripts we call "The Bible" thought Noah and the flood which occurred in his day was fictitious.
The books that were supposedly written by Moses were written by someone else. It is possible Moses never existed. A lot of the early bible personalities were probably imaginary and to create a sense of grandiosity to the history of Jewish people.
For example take Enoch the son of Jared, the father of Methuselah, and the great-grandfather of Noah. The text reads—uniquely in the Generations—that Enoch "walked with God: and he was not; for God took him," (Genesis 5:22-29) suggesting he did not experience the mortal death ascribed to Adam's other descendants. WIKI
Are you kidding me??????????
This Enoch guy did not die and simply ascended to heaven. That is Jesus like behavior.!!!!!!!!
How about age. Almost everybody lived to be at least 900 years.
Well, I am in denial; in denial that people actually believed monkeys could carry a mountain and fly.
It is easy for you to say I am clueless about these people. But making derogatory statements about me does not prove you are correct. All I asked was for proof those people really believed flying monkeys could carry a mountain. Since you cannot provide such proof all you can do is denigrate your opponent.
No writer of the ancient manuscripts we call "The Bible" thought Noah and the flood which occurred in his day was fictitious.
I shouldn't have assumed that you would know that there are religions (and one of the larger ones, as a matter of fact) that present similar "historical evidence", in this case one of them being that of a flying monkey. Now you do: Hinduism.
Its not that your arguments spell cluelessness. They bring about an amusement factor, when you go about denouncing, what you call historical evidence, if they don't bode with your religion. And yet, you want everybody to take your story as a fact.
For example take Enoch the son of Jared, the father of Methuselah, and the great-grandfather of Noah. The text reads—uniquely in the Generations—that Enoch "walked with God: and he was not; for God took him," (Genesis 5:22-29) suggesting he did not experience the mortal death ascribed to Adam's other descendants. WIKI
Are you kidding me??????????
This Enoch guy did not die and simply ascended to heaven. That is Jesus like behavior.!!!!!!!!
There are actually 9 people in the Talmud who are said to have ascended directly to Olam Haba (the world to come) without dying a mortal death. i can't remember all nine, but yes, Enoch is indeed one. Also Sarach bas Asher (Abraham's great granddaughter, who is the one who informed Yakkov that his son Yosef was not dead). Also Basya bas Paro (Pharoah's daughter who rescued Moses in the Yam Suf). Eliyahu (Elijah the Prophet).
The list of 9 are found in an obscure minor work of the Talmud called Derek Eretz Zutra - I believe it's in the final chapter. I don't want to derail this forum by saying this: one of the 9 listed simply says "moschiach." What that means, is way beyond my ability to comment.
Quote:
How about age. Almost everybody lived to be at least 900 years
The people before the flood were much closer to the original source humans (Adam and Chava). Think of it like cassette tapes. The master tape is the perfect version. The 2nd generation has some hiss. The 3rd generation becomes distorted, and so on...
The people before the flood were much closer to the original source humans (Adam and Chava). Think of it like cassette tapes. The master tape is the perfect version. The 2nd generation has some hiss. The 3rd generation becomes distorted, and so on...
Then, not even God is perfect.
He couldn't do better than humans when it came to creating a copying system. :P In all seriousness, what was the point of saving the perfect humans, if imperfect copies were to be distributed?
He couldn't do better than humans when it came to creating a copying system. :P In all seriousness, what was the point of saving the perfect humans, if imperfect copies were to be distributed?
The copying system was intended to be perfect, and indeed it was before the flood. Since Noah was (one of) the last of that pre-flood generation to survive the flood, it's worth noting that he lived to be more than 900 years old, or thereabouts.
But the entire nature of the world changed after the flood, by Hashem's design. That level of perfection didn't just go away - Hashem surely willed it to be that way.
Our sages teach us that Yaakov (Abraham's grandson) was the first man on earth to ever age. By ageing, I mean get a white beard, have wrinkles in his face, etc. Before the time of Yaakov, when it was time to die, you simply up and died. You never showed any wear and tear until the moment your neshama (soul) passed from Olam hazeh (this world) into Olam Haba (the world to come).
It's interesting to note that Abraham would have been a child while Noah was still alive, and he would have likely known this 800+ year old man before he died. Abraham surely knew Noah's son Eber, as Eber set up a large Yeshiva where Abraham's students came to learn concepts that would eventually become the Torah, 5 or 6 generations later. Yaakov studied in Eber's Yeshiva for 16 years himself before marrying Rivka and fathering the 12 Jewish tribes that make up the nation of Israel.
The copying system was intended to be perfect, and indeed it was before the flood. Since Noah was (one of) the last of that pre-flood generation to survive the flood, it's worth noting that he lived to be more than 900 years old, or thereabouts.
But the entire nature of the world changed after the flood, by Hashem's design. That level of perfection didn't just go away - Hashem surely willed it to be that way.
Our sages teach us that Yaakov (Abraham's grandson) was the first man on earth to ever age. By ageing, I mean get a white beard, have wrinkles in his face, etc. Before the time of Yaakov, when it was time to die, you simply up and died. You never showed any wear and tear until the moment your neshama (soul) passed from Olam hazeh (this world) into Olam Haba (the world to come).
It's interesting to note that Abraham would have been a child while Noah was still alive, and he would have likely known this 800+ year old man before he died. Abraham surely knew Noah's son Eber, as Eber set up a large Yeshiva where Abraham's students came to learn concepts that would eventually become the Torah, 5 or 6 generations later. Yaakov studied in Eber's Yeshiva for 16 years himself before marrying Rivka and fathering the 12 Jewish tribes that make up the nation of Israel.
So, imperfect system was God's plan. For what? Personally, I see human's try to perfect but they are limited by realities. I guess God is no different.
And that, after all the drama that was a "global flood". I guess, one could say that those graves were too washed out by these floods as God didn't want any sign of perfect humans around. But that begs a question: Why?
The books that were supposedly written by Moses were written by someone else. It is possible Moses never existed. A lot of the early bible personalities were probably imaginary and to create a sense of grandiosity to the history of Jewish people.
For example take Enoch the son of Jared, the father of Methuselah, and the great-grandfather of Noah. The text reads—uniquely in the Generations—that Enoch "walked with God: and he was not; for God took him," (Genesis 5:22-29) suggesting he did not experience the mortal death ascribed to Adam's other descendants. WIKI
Are you kidding me??????????
This Enoch guy did not die and simply ascended to heaven. That is Jesus like behavior.!!!!!!!!
How about age. Almost everybody lived to be at least 900 years.
Moses wrote the first five books called the Penteteuch. Most likely Joshua, who took over the leadership from Moses wrote about Moses' death.
Deut.34:5 "Moses, the servant of Yahweh, died there in the country of Moab at the bidding of Yahweh.
After the flood, mankind's life expectancy dramatically shortened.
The Jews who read and wrote the bible did not believe Enoch never died but that he was transferred from one hostile situation to one of safety so that, at that specific point in time he would not be acquainted with death.
In the book of Hebrews it states he died.
Heb 11:5 "By faith Enoch was transferred, so as not to be acquainted with death, and was not found, because God transfers him. For before his transference he is attested to have pleased God well."
Heb 11:13 In faith died all these, not being requited with the promises, but perceiving them ahead and saluting them, and avowing that they are strangers and expatriates on the earth. "
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I wouldn't want anyone to get their chronology mixed up from reading that heh heh!
