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So you are saying Jesus and the writers of the New Testament believed in the preposterous? Interesting!
Of course not, Eusebius . . . but they routinely used parables and metaphors to TEACH spiritual lessons! Failure to properly divide the scriptures is not their failure.
Of course not, Eusebius . . . but they routinely used parables and metaphors to TEACH spiritual lessons! Failure to properly divide the scriptures is not their failure.
Of course not, Eusebius . . . but they routinely used parables and metaphors to TEACH spiritual lessons! Failure to properly divide the scriptures is not their failure.
Jesus was not talking parabolically when speaking of the flood of Noah and its relation to His return. To His disciples He did not talk in parables but to the common people He did.
Jesus was not talking parabolically when speaking of the flood of Noah and its relation to His return. To His disciples He did not talk in parables but to the common people He did.
You were there to confirm that assumption now were you? It seems when your points are proven wrong you make broad assumptions that have no basis in proof other then being something you make up to try to prove your point. Noah was not real just accept the fact that the bible is not a literal tale of the world and move on. You have a brain and it's i believe a sin to refuse to use it. But you seriously can't be this freaking simple minded can you?
You were there to confirm that assumption now were you? It seems when your points are proven wrong you make broad assumptions that have no basis in proof other then being something you make up to try to prove your point. Noah was not real just accept the fact that the bible is not a literal tale of the world and move on. You have a brain and it's i believe a sin to refuse to use it. But you seriously can't be this freaking simple minded can you?
I have proof. I use my brain. Now that you got your vitriol out of you, I hope you feel better. Now, let's use our brains and see how I am correct.
Notice Jesus' disciples asked Him why He spoke to the common people in parables:
Mat 13:10-13 And, approaching, the disciples say to Him, "Wherefore art Thou speaking in parables to them? (11) Now, answering, He said to them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given. (12) For anyone who has, to him shall be given, and he shall have a superfluity. Yet anyone who has not, that also which he has shall be taken away from him. (13) Therefore in parables am I speaking to them, seeing that, observing, they are not observing, and hearing, they are not hearing, neither are they understanding.
Now please notice Jesus' disciples came to Him and asked Him this:
Mat 24:3 Now at His sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what is the sign of Thy presence and of the conclusion of the eon?
And part of that discourse to the disciples He said this to His disciples:
Mat 24:37-39 For even as the days of Noah, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind." (38) For as they were in those days before the deluge, masticating and drinking and marrying and taking in marriage until the day on which Noah entered into the ark, (39) and did not know till the deluge came and takes them all away, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."
So it just makes sense that Jesus spoke to the common people in parables but to His disciples He did not. Therefore what He said about Noah and the ark was not parabolic.
If you are going to speak about my position at least have the integrity to get it correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
If you are going to continue to make up stuff up off the top of your imagination, at least have the intellectual honesty to pre-amble it with "IM not so HO".
I don't believe "instant super-mountans popping up where they didn't exist before." I said there were mountains in Noah's day (though not nearly as high as they are today) that rapidly arose when Pangaea broke apart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
Yup! They were ALL conveniently < 400 ft, even though mountians are mentioned in the bible all over the place, and nothing about them being all held to some God-mandated easily-flooded level. Even so, please... someone besides me, do the quick calculation for this fool as to exactly how much new H2O would then be required to cover the earth with an additional 400+ feet of water.
The "windows of the heavens" being opened up could have been huge amounts of hydrogen outside the earth being drawn into the earth's atmosphere combining with the earth's oxygen and causing torents or rain to fall making it look like water was gushing out of windows above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stunned_rflmn
"Could have"?? You speculatin' yet again, Big-E? Seems so. Specu-4-Convenience? You do know that hydrogen combining with oxygen in the exactly right stoichiometric ratio of pure H and pure O is significantly[/i][/b] more powerful an explosion than that of exploding gasoline, right? But it also does not and cannot exist in nature without a complete revamping of the atmosphere? All of it? Tripeisms on Rampant Display ye again!
Have you ever wondered why hydrogen's being used as a vehicle fuel in some research autos, but also where they remain mightily concerned about fire safety issues? And pure Oxygen is ditto, VERY flammable. Don't be lighting a match in a hospital operating room or anywhere in there for that matter! Big Boom!
"Say there, whoa just a minute, Noah! Don't be lighting that fire to warm the pitch, old soak, lest you want to blow us all right off this mountain, and ignite the entire atmosphere!" [b]
You're REALLY behind the ol' scientific education 8-ball, aren't you, Eusebius! Thanks for showing us that yet once again!
Truly... Absolutely Moronic ideas a coupled to a mind of gastropodian slowness...).
That to have created enough water by an H + O explosive interaction to flood the earth with trillions of gahzillions of cubic miles of new water would have flattened everything. You know this right? Plus then you'd STILL have that residual (so to speak..) problem with getting rid of all it afterwards.
But you're suggesting it came about how again? In a conveniently constantly-fed, controlled (???) and uninterrupted hydrogen-oxygen reaction with hydrogen MAGICALLY appearing out of the heavens where it was all previously kept in what again? Coupling with an endless supply of pure oxygen down here? Huh? Large brightly-colored hydrogen balloons, held by the angels while they pranco-danced around God's golden throne??
Do you perhaps remember this little hydrogen event, yah silly bughurh?
WHAT FABULOUSLY ABSURD AND FAIRY-TALE STUFF you constantly come up with! Fricking amazing. (Good thing always I'm here to correct you, huh? Wouldn't want you to look like a totally technologically stupid guy, now would we?).
I do hope they have an award here @ C-D for The Most Obtuse and Obfuscatory Nonesence Posts!"
The Bible also describes the fountains of the deep gushing out water. If this is impossible why did the historical account describe it as happening? They described it that way because it happened that way 5 to 7 thousand years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
Nope. EPICALLY-EPIC TECHNICAL/SCIENTIFIC FAIL YET AGAIN, and everyone here, even the Christians, see it for that.
The illiterate goat-herding minstrel prophets, who made Jesus up, [and decades AFTER he was supposed to have "been"] btw, described it that way, in nowhere near the detail you now ascribe literally to it all, because their knowledge of geology and hydrology was less than that of a 6 year old today!
You know; the very kids who completely believe in Santa and Easter Bunnies and God? And oh yeah: you too. Say; you ARE older than 6 aren't you?
Remember now; the viewpoint of your glorious prophets and their entire life's view was limited to a few hundred (if that!) kilometers around the shores of the ancient Middle Eastern biblical countries.
They had not sailed across the seas, seen the Himalayan Mountains, etc. Didn't even know those bad boys existed, in fact! And I'll remind you ghat it does not say, anywhere in your bible (well maybe your's ; the one you've written all on your lonesome...) , that the mountains were all low and max'd out @ 400'.
Just thought I'd let you know that soz you can make the appropriate permanent corrections to your obviously so very limited and biased knowledge base (hee heee... now there's an oxymoron as regards you, huh?)!
The biblical authors probably hadn't even seen Mt. Ararat, which was written up in some books and was FAR taller than 400 feet! It was, in fact, about 15,000 ft ASL before your flood. And the Chinese, Tibetans and Japanese, not to mention the Mayans who greatly preceded Jesus' time, all in very reliable histories that predate[look that word up too...] your silly bible, note a high number of very majestic and tall mountains they all worshipped. And to an entirely different set of Gods, btw. Oooopsss, huh?.
(Oh By the way, I provided you previously with a list of just a few of those worshipped Asian mountains, but natch, since it interferes with your delusional fantasy, you ignore it..)
There are no bottled-up macro-volumes of convenient free-flowing water that is just itching to, and thus will, gush outon command. Plus, to get it all back in again, on command, into the subsided [look that word up too, Eusebius
Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
... It's important!][/i] caverns all require the one thing you guys will not ever say: supernatural MAGIC. Since that blows your God out of His MAGIC throne. Nope.
Suggestion: Stop trying to use fabricated fantasy logic since it only traps you down in your basement cavern. Unlike me.
Please! get your freaking facts straight before you do more damage to your poor credibility! It wasn't just 2 of each kind. It was 2 of one kind and 7 pair of each other kind!
Please: learn just a tiny little bit of something about Basic Reproductive Ecology, and then tell me: How many of a reproductably isolated [and thus a separate "species", not a "kind"] animal group does it take to successfully, without MAGIC, repopulate an ecosystem, even if they had been deposited (PLUNK!) into the correct environment with the right food and fresh water resources, plus appropriate accomodation for safe retreat? and no competition from a bunch of other T-Rex, velociraptor, polar, grizzly, black, sun, etc/ bears, competitors?
You haven't REALLY thought this out have you, Eusebius? It shows, I tell yah!
Oh, unless you call the frozen 13,000+ ft ASL top of Ararat, or even, for the sake of silly argument some nice warm Euro-pine forest (which unfortunately would also be drowned and all dead after 18 mo under thousands of feet of cold salt water and no solar light energy for photosynthesis, and vast hydrological pressure [way over mega-tonnes per sq. inch at those depths!] ... oh Lord, you are dumb on this stuff!), the right habitat for, say, an Amazonian skink or parrot, lizard, possum, boa constrictor and other snakes and their specific and necessary prey species, grasshoppers, ants, butterflies, beetles, etc? And how about the other literal millions of species, incl. plants, from other entirely different ecologies?
BTWm for ourt more open-minded readers, the pressures at the bottom of the Marianas Trench without an additional 28,000 feet of water on top of it is presently: 15,750 pounds per square inch, and adding in the depth of mythical flood waters would add approx. 33% more, bringing it al lto a fun approx 21,000 psi. What fun for the trapped animals & plants that pre-existed down there, eh? POOF: all gone!
("Psst> NOah ewlde chep: Would you be so kind as to show me on which level(s) all the plant terreria, both terrestrial and aquatic, in each of 25 - 50 different typical eco-environmental zones, is located before I retire to my elegant stateroom? Why, thank you.")
Answer a lobe question, I double-dare you (maybe a kid's dare will work on this kid?). Just this once. Tell me/us how many, let's say, Bengal tigers (which is NOT a kind of house cat, btw..) does it take to reproduce their populations back up to the late 1800s population of 30,000+ in India alone?
You know; since these days, us professional biologists (you send me a copy of your PhD in biology and I'll send you a copy of mine, in guess what? Mammalian biology... Yup...) we're very concerned where the numbers of those tigers (and grizz and polar bears and elephants and apes and rhinos and cheetahs and a couple hundred other truly endangered species that still exist in several thousands of each, but which can't get themselves out of their eco-pickle even with those numbers supporting them?), even when they are living in what's left of a correct bio-habitat, are down in the low 2500s, and declining, and are therefore in very direct danger of going extinct?
But you think, as follows, a pair, or even seven, will just take care of it? You even call that "plenty" and then claim to be educated or knowledgeable on any of this topic? WTF? When they are just kicked off that leaking, stinky barge, dropped off not in the approproate Indian jungle, but up on a snow-covered mountain, with no fresh drinking water or gazelles or native humans to eat? (They already downed tall of those on the barge about 17.8 months earlier ...)
BTW, what exactly do those numerous prey species, all those unguligrade animals and omnivores eat in terms of vegetation, pray tell?
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast you are to take to you seven by seven, the sire and his dam, and of the beast which is not clean, of it a pair, the sire and his dam.
Gen 7:3 And, moreover, of the clean flyer of the heavensseven by seven, male and female, and of the flyer which is not clean, of it a pair, male and female, to keep alive seed on the surface of the entire earth.
Plenty of pairs to kick start the planet with what we have today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by laughing_again_but_even_harder_rflmn
AS DULY NOTED: RUBBISH. "PLENTY" YOU SAY? RUBBISH, AND EASILY DEMONSTRATED, EXCEPT TO YOUR GASTROPODIAN MIND.
(Example: if but one deer or gazzelle or antelope or goat or deer,etc., in that "pair" is lost due to illness, attack (those damned predators, huh? Always wanting to eat!), genetic mutation, still-born young, and so on. And that entire lineage is instantly lost. All of them, and even if you do subscribe to that silly "kind" but no evolution necessary thing, it would stop all the future Gazzella lineage (Thompson's dik-dik, planes, Grant's, Springbok, Arabian, etc etc etc. All with distinct genomes, and not some stupidic "kinds" Re-definition of Convenience!) And yet, it did not! How odd, huh? Then predictably however, you go on with even more silliness...
The ark didn't need to have power or a rudder. All it needed was a four-walled valley and anchored within that valley. No turbulent seas to withstand. Only when it got above the mountains by 25 feet would the waters POSSIBLY get a little rough. But the tops of the surrounding mountains would act as breakers. Then as the waters subsided the ark would gently descend back to one of the mountains of Ararat.
Please spare us your unfounded vitriol.
Ahh. And Now! New details coming in on our Nightly Christly News Channel;"All BS, ALL the Time!!"
Let's cut to our reporter on the spot: "Fred? You there? Come in Fed!"
"Yep, Fred here, Eusebius! We do indeed have us a barge anchored in a valley, but the valley walls are only 400 feet tall, so I'm not sure how much protection they'll give old Noah in his1325m long barge when the winds blow and the T-Rexs get a bit antsy!
Fresh news at 11, if we're still out here that is. It is gettin' downright nasty here! Perhaps Leona (Our cute blonde weather girl!) can update us on this really big storm front. Leona?")...
Tied with hemp anchor rope (not wire cable? (anytime you wanna step in here again, sanspeur, bmg...) A barge that long, subjected to vicious side winds and the newest imaginary theory: constant pressure-surge-flattening hydrogen-oxygen explosions overhead, and with the mountains lurching skywards, +28,000 feet in only 18 mo? (with, oddly, no volcanism going on either...) underneath it all? Wow?
Please send a sample of what youz furshur smokin' bro! I juss gotz to try it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
I'll never understand for the life of me why people fight so hard for the Noah story to be false. Why do they need it to not be literal?
Because it was intended solely as a mythological metaphor or allegory (look them both up; the concepts may astound even you!). No-one EVER intended folks to take all of the bible's teachings as absolutely literal, especially when we can and do so easily now explain all the once-spell-bound mysteries, like:
the ancient earth,
the dinos that the bible's authors ABSOLUTELY had no prior knowledge of and thus didn't mention (Nope. don't give me that stupid Job story, we've already put that little hypothetical God-Job discusion to bed, and it's the only one you've got as well! What, no-one would write up giant herds of Apatosaurs et al wandering through camp?
Talk about delusional!), the unfinished vs. fully finished universe, a flat earth, earth earth as the true center of the universe, humans as the ultimate non-animal animal, and so on… ("...and if you say otherwise, we'll publicly behead you!")
Plus, we've categorically proven Evolution, (as the utterly simple mutation mechanism-driven change in allele frequencies, obviously resulting in a new genome and thus functional or appearance-based phenome) and yet you deny it.
With modern DNA/RNA tracking, which is inarguable (less you want to try? Yes?), we can indeed travel backwards through many existing modern living genomes, through what we already morphologically predicted were their ancestors, and BY Golly and God's Own Handwriting, we can now clearly see the constant micro-changes in each era of genomes where those adaption changes are visible from "Species A" through tribe/race/sub[species variants and their various own divisions and new directions and lineages, on up to {wayyyttt fur tt..._ Species B! And "C" and "D" and so on.
But as well, you stubbornly refuse to answer even one of our most basic questions, such as:
Which one mechanism of Evolution does not operate?
Pick just one and get it out of your system, Eusebius! Impress us with your technical knowledge in genetics and Evolution!
What. Can't? Won't? Too frightened to speak?
You deserve any comments you receive, Eusebius. You represent
the very pinnacle of technical & scientific, ecological, reproductive and astronomical illiteracy;
scientific delusion;
mis-quoted mis-use of science;
illogic to support suposed logic;
a lack of acceptance of actual accredited professionals like Dakins, Hawking, Darwin, Lenski, Venter, and literally millions of others, in favor of and endless assortment of…
lies and mis-quotes by known felons posing as scientists, with self--granted "degrees" fro non-existant "universities",;
vastly stubborn intransigence;
all coupled to an absolute dedication to only one of several thousand potential God figures, equally fervently defended by millions of your equally uneducated fellow theists, all of those godz now known to be nothing but spiritual wooden icons that were invented, obviously, by Mayans, N. Am natives, ancient Cro-Magnon & Neanderthal and other cave- and tree-dwellers to explain the strange noises each night, the lightning bolts and tornados and earthquakes.
Everything they knew nothing about, but that scared them, including whatever got to those stupid prophets (I mean, given what they attribute things to in their fanciful book...)
You really outght to get out more! And stop being so dedicated to formal indoctrinated and rote-parroted intransigence!
I think the most likely explaination is that the story of the flood was more a myth than an allegory.
People believed the myth then for the same reason that some people still believe the myth now. Ancient bedouin goat-herders wrote it down and said it was the word of God, so they just accepted that explaination as fact.
Originally Posted by Eusebius I have proof. I use my brain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
No, obviously you do not(see my previous longish post, but don't forget the stubborn little facts and details, OK?)
Actually, it is obvious I do use my brain. You do not.
The point was that Jesus
spoke to the common people
in parables. He spoke to the disciples
about facts. He spoke to the disciples equating
the fact of the world-wide flood of Noah's day, Noah,
Noah and the ark as factual just as His return will be factual.
Actually, it is obvious I do use my brain. You do not.
The point was that Jesus
spoke to the common people
in parables. He spoke to the disciples
about facts. He spoke to the disciples equating
the fact of the world-wide flood of Noah's day, Noah,
Noah and the ark as factual just as His return will be factual.
Jesus probably didn't know that a flood like that wasn't possible, so he believed it was a true story. Not his fault really. In that day-and-age, lots of things weren't well understood.
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It seems when your points are proven wrong you make broad assumptions that have no basis in proof other then being something you make up to try to prove your point. Noah was not real just accept the fact that the bible is not a literal tale of the world and move on. You have a brain and it's i believe a sin to refuse to use it. But you seriously can't be this freaking simple minded can you?
Here He Goes Again! All Nonsense, All The Time!
; the one you've written all on your lonesome...) , that the mountains were all low and max'd out @ 400'. 
...)
RUBBISH, AND EASILY DEMONSTRATED, EXCEPT TO YOUR GASTROPODIAN MIND. 
