Who Really Killed JESUS CHRIST? (suicide, worship, baptize, Jewish)
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I cannot blame you if you keep on insisting that you do not believe in Luke or Matthew or Mark and John... because that's what you firmly believe... but you cannot blame me too if I believe their writings because I don't believe it was them who Masterminded the 4 Gospels - but the Holy Spirit. They were led by the Spirit to write 4 different angles of the life of Jesus... of course, even in the court of law, 4 different witnesses will not testify from the same point of view but from their own... Matthew was written for the Jews, while Mark was written as a witness for the Romans... Luke was written for the Greeks and John was written for the rest of mankind... they are the 4 living creatures in heaven that were filled with eyes (as witness), to the murder of the Son of GOD... but as I have contended... it was neither the Jews or the Romans that killed Jesus - it was the sin of all men of Whom He offered His own life as a ransom for many... Only those who will accept His sacrifice for them will be forgiven and given eternal life.
As for your accusation that "But the millions of Jews who perished in pogrom and holocaust were killed by Christians on the basis of that passage"... I will refute that, because true Christians love Jews (and all men) because we do not take away their privilege as GOD's chosen people... And I am grateful to them because they rejected their Messiah - thus the Gospel of Salvation was also brought to us non-Jewish... I pray for the Peace of Jerusalem and bless the Jews and Israel. We love even our enemies because that is what the LORD Jesus had taught us.
And we do not accuse the Jews or the Romans as the one who killed Jesus - because we learned that it was our sins that killed Him but His love kept Him on the Cross to satisfy the Father who willed that without the shedding of the blood, there is no remission of sin.
Romans 5:6-11 "For when we were still helpless, Christ died for the wicked at the time that God chose. It is a difficult thing for someone to die for a righteous person. It may even be that someone might dare to die for a good person. But God has shown us how much he loves us---it was while we were still sinners that Christ died for us! By his blood we are now put right with God; how much more, then, will we be saved by him from God's anger! We were God's enemies, but he made us his friends through the death of his Son. Now that we are God's friends, how much more will we be saved by Christ's life! But that is not all; we rejoice because of what God has done through our Lord Jesus Christ, who has now made us God's friends."
Ok. I am just sure that the Gospels are Pauline Christian fabrications and can explain in detail why i believe so. Not everyone is going to agree and that's up to them and of course I could be wrong.
I suppose that blaming humanity en masse for Jesus' death is better than blaming it on the jews, but the fact is that many, many on the forum and out of it, have said quite plainly that they accept that the Jews killed Jesus and they are all to blame. That is based on the gospels and that passage of Matthew in particular. I suppose that the Churches are stuck as they cannot say it is false as where would that leave the gospels? The best one could expect is Pope J-Paul's 'forgiveness' which effectively says that they did it but they are released from eternal condemnation.
Ok. I am just sure that the Gospels are Pauline Christian fabrications and can explain in detail why i believe so. Not everyone is going to agree and that's up to them and of course I could be wrong.
I suppose that blaming humanity en masse for Jesus' death is better than blaming it on the jews, but the fact is that many, many on the forum and out of it, have said quite plainly that they accept that the Jews killed Jesus and they are all to blame. That is based on the gospels and that passage of Matthew in particular. I suppose that the Churches are stuck as they cannot say it is false as where would that leave the gospels? The best one could expect is Pope J-Paul's 'forgiveness' which effectively says that they did it but they are released from eternal condemnation.
Even Paul wrote a letter to the Thessalonians stating that the Jews were responsible to the death of Jesus Christ... 1Th 2:14-16 "Our friends, the same things happened to you that happened to the churches of God in Judea, to the people there who belong to Christ Jesus. You suffered the same persecutions from your own people that they suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and persecuted us. How displeasing they are to God! How hostile they are to everyone! They even tried to stop us from preaching to the Gentiles the message that would bring them salvation. In this way they have brought to completion all the sins they have always committed. And now God's anger has at last come down on them! "
But Paul also reiterated that the stubbornness of the Jews were part of GOD's over-all plan of salvation - to give the non-Jewish people in other parts of the world a chance to hear the Good news and become part of GOD's own people in Jesus...
Rom 11:1-2 "I ask, then: Did God reject his own people? Certainly not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people, whom he chose from the beginning..."
Rom 11:23-25 And if the Jews abandon their unbelief, they will be put back in the place where they were; for God is able to do that. You Gentiles are like the branch of a wild olive tree that is broken off and then, contrary to nature, is joined to a cultivated olive tree. The Jews are like this cultivated tree; and it will be much easier for God to join these broken-off branches to their own tree again. There is a secret truth, my friends, which I want you to know, for it will keep you from thinking how wise you are. It is that the stubbornness of the people of Israel is not permanent, but will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to God."
And the Gentiles becomes part of GOD's family through the preaching of the Good news, Rom 10:9-15 "If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from death, you will be saved. For it is by our faith that we are put right with God; it is by our confession that we are saved. The scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed." This includes everyone, because there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles; God is the same Lord of all and richly blesses all who call to him. As the scripture says, "Everyone who calls out to the Lord for help will be saved." But how can they call to him for help if they have not believed? And how can they believe if they have not heard the message? And how can they hear if the message is not proclaimed? And how can the message be proclaimed if the messengers are not sent out? As the scripture says, "How wonderful is the coming of messengers who bring good news!"
And since from the beginning of this thread; what I am trying to extend to everyone that everybody is guilty of the death of Jesus Christ - both the Jews and non-Jewish people who were born in sin. Sin is like a cancer in the human race. No one escapes death, because the penalty of sin is death. But he or she who trusts and believes in Jesus Christ will be saved.
Even Paul wrote a letter to the Thessalonians stating that the Jews were responsible to the death of Jesus Christ... 1Th 2:14-16 ...
Note:
Quote:
The vast majority of New Testament scholars hold 1 Thessalonians to be authentic, although a number of scholars in the mid-19th century contested its authenticity, most notably Clement Schrader and F.C. Baur. 1 Thessalonians matches other accepted Pauline letters, both in style and in content, and its authorship is also affirmed by 2 Thessalonians.
1 Thessalonians 2:13-16 have often been regarded as a post-Pauline interpolation. The following arguments have been based on the content: (1) It is perceived to be theologically incompatible with Paul's other epistles: elsewhere Paul attributed Jesus's death to the "rulers of this age" (1 Cor 2:8) rather than to the Jews, and elsewhere Paul writes that the Jews have not been abandoned by God for "all Israel will be saved" (Rom 11:26); According to 1 Thes 1:10, the wrath of God is still to come, it is not something that has already shown itself (2) There were no extensive historical persecutions of Christians by Jews in Palestine prior to the first Jewish war (3) The use of the concept of imitation in 1 Thes. 2.14 is singular. (4) The aoristeftasen ("has overtaken") refers to the destruction of Jerusalem (5) The syntax of 1 Thes. 2:13-16 deviates significantly from that of the surrounding context.
but you will of course believe what you want to believe.
Let me just reiterate... that from the beginning of this thread; what I am trying to point to everyone is that everybody is guilty of the death of Jesus Christ - both the Jews and non-Jewish people who were born in sin. Sin is like a cancer in the human race. No one escapes death both Jews and Gentiles, because the penalty of sin is death. But he or she who trusts and believes in Jesus Christ will be saved.
Because even though Jesus the Messiah was killed by man. Yet GOD turned it around for our good... because by His blood that was shed on the Cross... it became the Blood of the Passover Lamb that will be present at the door of the heart of those who believe so they may pass over from death to life - even Life Eternal.
Didn't Jesus appear to be sweating blood in the Garden of Gethsemane? That was the night before he was taken by the Romans. In order to do that his heart would have had to burst. After Jesus was on the cross did he not say it is finnished and he gave up the ghost. His spirit left his body, no man on Earth had that power to live or die at will. Ladies and Gentleman, it is all of us that killed Jesus. No one person or group can lay claim to that deed. All of us together did it. Everytime we commit a crime, sin, argue with a Moderator, yell at our wives, (or husbands) Yell at the kids, cheat, forget to love others, forget to call our parents or any other thing we are helping to kill Jesus. He is willing to pay for our sins if we are willing to follow him and go and sin no more. That my friends doesn't mean to just believe, that means to act. Faith without works is dead. Faith should create an action from the faithfull.
Even Paul wrote a letter to the Thessalonians stating that the Jews were responsible to the death of Jesus Christ... 1Th 2:14-16 "Our friends, the same things happened to you that happened to the churches of God in Judea, to the people there who belong to Christ Jesus. You suffered the same persecutions from your own people that they suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and persecuted us. How displeasing they are to God! How hostile they are to everyone! They even tried to stop us from preaching to the Gentiles the message that would bring them salvation. In this way they have brought to completion all the sins they have always committed. And now God's anger has at last come down on them! "...
Pardon me for cutting as this is the relevant bit. Yes, Paul does appear to be accusing the Jews of killing Jesus, which is hardly fair even going by the biased Gospel account which, as I argue, is trying to blame all Jews for the crucifixion when it was the Romans who did it, and Caiaphas was just collaborating.
It also claims that they killed the prophets, which is a questionable claim indeed. I could go into my doubts about Paul's veracity especially at this time when he was smarting from being summoned to Jerusalem to explain his gentile -friendly take on the Nazorene beliefs - I believe that account in Galatians and in Acts was fudged to make it seem that Paul talked them round with Peter's help and got all he wanted from James, but it is clear that he was still being stalked by the 'Super apostles' as he sneeringly called them who were undoing all his work, if they could.
That could be seen as just my own view, and it does depend on not being convinced that Pilate was trying to let Jesus off and his Sadducee appointees were twisting his arm. However that may be, my main argument is that Matthew's passage where the Jews take responsibility upon themselves is not found in the other accounts of that passage and therefore I say that he added it.
It is that passage that hammers home this idea that ALL Jewry was responsible the actions of the Roman administration and it is, as I said, disgusting, and the foundation of the centuries - long persecution of Jews by Christianity.
Didn't Jesus appear to be sweating blood in the Garden of Gethsemane? That was the night before he was taken by the Romans. In order to do that his heart would have had to burst. After Jesus was on the cross did he not say it is finnished and he gave up the ghost. His spirit left his body, no man on Earth had that power to live or die at will. Ladies and Gentleman, it is all of us that killed Jesus. No one person or group can lay claim to that deed. All of us together did it. Everytime we commit a crime, sin, argue with a Moderator, yell at our wives, (or husbands) Yell at the kids, cheat, forget to love others, forget to call our parents or any other thing we are helping to kill Jesus. He is willing to pay for our sins if we are willing to follow him and go and sin no more. That my friends doesn't mean to just believe, that means to act. Faith without works is dead. Faith should create an action from the faithfull.
Yep, that's right... it was our sins why Christ took the capital Punishment to show us His great commitment to His creatures that even though we failed Him - He will just easily forsake us and just create another specie, yet He became one with us and felt our pain and struggles - even unto death. So we may have a new birth and become a new creature because of His death that served as the Seed or as He said, unless a grain of wheat falls on the ground, it remains alone, yet when it dies - it produces much much more that what was planted... that's why now, there are many Christ-like people in the world - although of course He also warned about the weeds that looked like wheat that grew together. We shall know them by their fruit.
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