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That still doesn't answer. How do you know these individuals are voting based on their Christian beliefs? You say you don't vote based on your belief, so how do you know that they do? Do you have some kind of evidence to prove your point?
Because there is no rational basis for denying civil right to homosexuals, aside from appeals to religion. It almost always boils down to that. Scratch long enough and you almost invariably get the answer, "Its a sin" or "They are trying to redefine marriage which was instituted by God."
Why do you oppose gay marriage? Do you have some other reason?
Given that this is the internet and the land of misunderstanding, maybe I should have qualified my original post, but then again I never expected anyone to presume that I was talking about street evangelism. I thought maybe some people have been approached by friends or family members. I'm not sure what to tell you. I made the question general because I was expecting more open ended responses.
Everyone doesn't want to have these discussions and I think that is fair, but I think it's disingenuous to say that, but then participate in internet discussions. I mean, if you don't like to talk those topics, then why talk about them at all? If you come on the internet to discuss them then clearly you like talking about it.
It may as simple as discussing these matters with others who wish to discuss them whether it be religion, cars, dogs or the war in Ukraine. I came to this site to try to understand how the fundamentist makes their decisions, I know of no fundamentalists. I stayed due to getting interestied in some of the topics. You will not find me posting on many of the the threads on here. I doubt I could find any one I know that believes in a 6000 year old earth or that science is at odds with Christians. I have only started a single thread on this forum and that was a question to fundamentalists. Without them I would not be here actually, I still find it interesting how they can come up with some of their statements.
I also wonder why you asked the question and then doubt most people's answers. You perhaps could have worded your question better but I also think you were expecting a set of instructions on how to approach instead of if you should approach. At least that is my take on this thread.
People normally do not bring up their religion or non religion where I live. It is sort of like bringing up their sex habits
Now you are being rude. For no reason. A prime example of what I am saying to you. You want to bring me to the word, not alienate me, or chastise me for something I may not have had clarity on. Instead of clarifying, you respond with rudeness.
I feel like this has already been answered quite a bit, but I'll try again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans
I thought maybe some people have been approached by friends or family members. I'm not sure what to tell you. I made the question general because I was expecting more open ended responses.
While I don't like door-knocking or street evangelism, it is not a huge deal to me. I think it is ineffective and obnoxious, but whatever.
I actually have more of a problem with family and friends trying to witness. When people with whom you have a relationship try to convert, save, or otherwise "fix" you, it puts you in a very bad position. You don't want to argue with them, it may damage the relationship, but you also don't want to lie to them or betray your own conscience. Plus you may be worried about the repercussions of honesty. My atheism has damaged relationships in my extended family, because they don't feel the same way about me, now that I have "fallen away" or am "one of them". I am not interested in flaunting my atheism or arguing about it, but when friends or family try to "minister" to me and do not take a hint to drop it, they are forcing me into a bad spot. I resent having to tiptoe around their insecurities, so as not to cause problems.
Plus, it makes me feel as though I am not important to them, only me religion. If my not being a Christian is enough to make them attack me, argue with me, or ostracize me, clearly the relationship was not very good to start with. But this attitude is much easier to take with friends as opposed to family. Just because my family is pushy and hyper-religious doesn't mean I want to just walk away, they are family!
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans
Everyone doesn't want to have these discussions and I think that is fair, but I think it's disingenuous to say that, but then participate in internet discussions. I mean, if you don't like to talk those topics, then why talk about them at all? If you come on the internet to discuss them then clearly you like talking about it.
I think here the difference is in intent. I like discussion, I do not like being witnessed to, preached at, or whatever you want to call it. A discussion between equals, where the goal is understanding is great, online or in person. A conversation where the goal is conversion, is not welcome. If I wanted what you were selling I would ask. If we want to talk about what you think or believe, and I am allowed to talk about what I believe without damaging the relationship, great. I am all for it. People leveraging friendship, charity, or familial relationships to pressure me into changing my beliefs is not welcome at all!
Does that help explain where I (and evidently many others) are coming from?
Maybe, if you genuinely care about being respectful of how non-christians feel about this, it would be more fruitful if you and other Christians simply shared what you believe is an appropriate way to approach people to share your beliefs. Then people can tell you how they would feel about being approached in that way. If you genuinely care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justtitans
Speaking of telling people what to do...
Where did I tell you what to do? I made a suggestion of how you might find out whether or not the way you approach people would be well received or not. But only if you genuinely care about it being well-received and respecting how non-christians feel. Your terse reply indicates to me that you don't.
People like you always think Christianity is made out of grease and everything bad just slides right off. If something bad happens because of Christian beliefs then it wasn't REALLY Christian beliefs.
It doesn't work that way and it would be so refreshing to actually hear a Christian take responsibility for the wrongs religion has committed even in the modern era. Not personal responsibility, of course, but to stop trying to defend bad actions - because defending those actions only ensures that they will happen again.
Those "things" you seem to claim are not a result of Christian beliefs of which you quoted jjrose were a DIRECT result of Christian beliefs. What, are you barmy or something?
Your opinion. People make their own decision. They clearly don't believe the same things I believe. I don't believe in the things you clam are a part of Christianity, so how is it possible that you believe that I share their views? Should I assume that you share the same beliefs as Atheists mass murders? What about those Indians who rape and oppress women? Should I say that you are single because you are a product of an oppressive, subservient culture? You see how that works? You generalize individuals but don't like when others do the same to you and then you have the nerve to blame religion for decision that people make. Whether you believe or you don't that's your choice. I don't make the determination of who you are just because a few superficial internet conversations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Almost ALL of the hatred of gays and the resulting discriminatory laws that were passed or proposed comes from the Christian belief that homosexuality is a sin and gays are an abomination. Where have you been? Those horrific pro-discrimination policies that some states tried to pass allowing discrimination of gays in places of business were a DIRECT result of fundamentalist religious belief ... and that brand of religion has ALWAYS tried to force itself onto the whole of society even managing once to get a Constitutional amendment passed banning alcohol. Yep, Prohibition was caused by a small but loudly yapping band of fundamentalists who wanted to reduce crime by banning "demon alcohol."
Of course, what they DID was create even more crime and the advent of organized crime syndicates. Gee, thanks, fundamentalists.
So please don't try to pretend that Christianity has nothing to do with these events.
How does it force itself if people are willfully voting to ban these things? It is call a democracy. You don't like how we vote for certain laws, go back to your home country, where you can be put in a class, told who to marry and you tell me how you feel about America then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
"Other religions" do not comprise of 80% of the American population and have the funding, organization, political clout, and lobbying power. What "other religions" believe is irrelevant in this country given that the fundamentalists here would NEVER allow a non-Christian religion to have any kind of influence upon our society.
Well, then you have a reason to leave. You can't change how a majority of the people feel, so why complain? You moved to a country that you disagree with the views of a majority of the people?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Yes, actually, there is. Oh, not by every Christian, of course, but there are some VERY squeaky wheels out there who are in a never-ending battle to take away our rights. Most of these attempts you never hear about because they occur at the local level. When I worked at a public county library in the Bible Belt, at least once a week we had to deal with Christian organizations trying to ban books from the library and if we failed to do so they would send in people to either steal the books or vandalize them. In other words, they are taking away the author's right of freedom of expression and taking away the reader's right to choose for his/herself what to read and what not to. Our right to use a public library is so sacrosanct that even the federal government cannot spy on which books we check out or use such a list against us in a court of law. Our library spent 17% of its annual budget replacing books Christians steal or vandalize - and we kept replacing them again and again just to keep those damn fascists from winning.
And there are people who are attempting to ban certain topics for preachers to talk about in their sermons for Christians. You also have media who purposefully edit out any mentions of Jesus Christ, so what makes this any different than what you have said?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
The laws banning gay marriage was directly taking away the de facto right to marry from approximately 30 million Americans. Yes, marriage IS a de facto right because a marriage license cannot be revoked by the government as a punitive action thus making it a de facto right.
Do you remember the Christian outcry against the Maplethorpe exhibit? Uh huh ... more Christian fascists who want to tell you and I what pictures we're allowed to see as if we're all a bunch of children and the Christian fascists are our parents.
Hundreds of these attempts go on all across the country each and every month - most go unreported and certainly don't make the national news. Fortunately for freedom loving Americans everywhere, these fascists are mostly unsuccessful - but they keep trying. What worries me is if the right people get into power, their persistence might start paying off. Thus we have to be constantly vigilant.
So is there an agenda by (some) Christians to take away our rights? You better believe it.
That is wrong. They still had the right to marry, they just couldn't marry who they wanted to.
Also marriage is still restricted by the government. For example, you cannot marry a blood relative, you cannot marry someone that is already married and you cannot marry multiple people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Umm, you DO say that, so I have no idea how you can even use this as a defense.
But it's not the same thing. Atheists, more times than not, have the rule of law on our side. When we go tearing after Christians, it's usually because they are violating the US Constitution. I say "usually" because there HAVE been times when atheists over-stepped their bounds and pushed to end something Christians have every right to pursue. Most recently there was a lawsuit trying to end a Christian prayer group who met once a week after school but on school grounds. I very much disagree with that kind of pushy atheism because even we should have boundaries. That's what freedom is all about.
So you're proving my point. People will make their own decisions. Based on your logic hear, you belong in the same category as those individuals, just as much as you try to put me in the same category as people who identify themselves as Christians but exercise actions contrary to our beliefs. How is it fair that you separate yourself, but then you put me in a box with other believers? Hmmm...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Sorry, but even if such people exist, they would be statistically irrelevant for the purposes of this particular discussion. It WAS, in fact, an atheist who successfully brought the suit to the government's attention and managed to get school-sanctioned prayer removed from schools. It wasn't a bunch of Christians who actually wanted to uphold the Constitution.
You clearly didn't understand my original comment. You just proved my point. Thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Wait a minute, let me get this straight. You're going to accuse jjrose of being intolerant of Christians who are intolerant of gays. REALLY?
That's like saying Jews who didn't like Nazis were just being bigots and shouldn't be so intolerant!
Do Christians try to pass laws to kill gays? If she lived in a country like Saudia Arabia, then intolerant would have a much different meaning here.
Where did I tell you what to do? I made a suggestion of how you might find out whether or not the way you approach people would be well received or not. But only if you genuinely care about it being well-received and respecting how non-christians feel. Your terse reply indicates to me that you don't.
The language that you used basically suggested that I had to do what you said, or else it was evidence I don't care. It's called manipulation. Just because I don't do what you suggest, doesn't mean I don't care. I think what you have posted is ignorant, manipulative and childish. If you want to give a suggestion, give one without trying to imply where someone feelings are. That tells me that you are only here to argue, not to give a real suggestion.
Because there is no rational basis for denying civil right to homosexuals, aside from appeals to religion. It almost always boils down to that. Scratch long enough and you almost invariably get the answer, "Its a sin" or "They are trying to redefine marriage which was instituted by God."
Why do you oppose gay marriage? Do you have some other reason?
It may as simple as discussing these matters with others who wish to discuss them whether it be religion, cars, dogs or the war in Ukraine. I came to this site to try to understand how the fundamentist makes their decisions, I know of no fundamentalists. I stayed due to getting interestied in some of the topics. You will not find me posting on many of the the threads on here. I doubt I could find any one I know that believes in a 6000 year old earth or that science is at odds with Christians. I have only started a single thread on this forum and that was a question to fundamentalists. Without them I would not be here actually, I still find it interesting how they can come up with some of their statements.
I also wonder why you asked the question and then doubt most people's answers. You perhaps could have worded your question better but I also think you were expecting a set of instructions on how to approach instead of if you should approach. At least that is my take on this thread.
People normally do not bring up their religion or non religion where I live. It is sort of like bringing up their sex habits
That's fair.
I don't doubt most people's answer. I just expected to hear a wider range of responses. It seems like most posters have focused on one particular type of evangelism. I know for a fact that some of the posters on here have believers in their family or even friends, so it's hard for me to believe that almost every single poster that post up here only has dealt with strangers. I have read people stories on here, so yes I am questioning why they aren't sharing more about evangelism besides one small portion of it.
My opinion, based on no one actually producing any. Proof is for math, evidence is for the rest of life. Every argument I have seen boils down to, "Its icky, I am uncomfortable with it." (Not a rational reason, just preference) or "Its icky, God doesn't like it." (religion) I would welcome someone demonstrating a different take on the issue. Want to take a stab at it?
-NoCapo
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