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Yes, God communicates with us, ask any believer. They hear Him.
No, I wouldn't want to trade places with anyone or wish that anyone would have to walk in my shows either.
And finally, there's nothing admirable about suffering. That's what I said.
What is admirable is the sufferer, the person who can suffer and still hold their heads high and trust God without wallowing in their own self-pity about how bad they've got it.
You do realize that there are others out there suffering more than you right? There's handicapped people who can't even type on a computer or afford one or afford internet access. There's starving people who'd give anything for the scraps off your table. There's parents out there, right now, kissing their dying child good bye. In the amount of time it's taken me to write this post, do you have any idea how many people have died from disease, war, starvation and any number of other things?
We think we know suffering? Wonder what a Holocaust survivor could teach any of us about suffering.
We're suffering alright, but it's from an attitude of ungratefulness.
What are we thankful for?
Job knew. Job figured it out.
Then he fell to the ground in worship and said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."
In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing. Job1:20-22
I know many people myself, that I greatly admire for their strong faith, under horrible conditions. They are true to their convictions, and to their Creator, and that is truly a wonderous thing. However, I believe that we must be careful not to place people, who have lost their faith, into some sort of "box" of unworthiness. I'm not saying that you do that, Alpha, and I certainly mean no offense but I am trying to make a point. We, all of us, have to be careful lest we find ourselves judging peoples' faith, or lack thereof, based on what we see on the outside. Some people do lose their faith over what appears a "bump in the road", and some lose it over things that are very obviously horrible, but we don't always know the story. What may bring one person to their knees in prayer, may bring another to their's, in utter despondency. Those bumps in the road may not seem important to us; indeed they may look extremely trivial, but they are probably quite important to the person involved. And, when it comes to obviously horrible things in someone's life, and if it cause them to lose their faith, I think we have to be especially careful, not to treat them as though there is something wrong with them. Some people just don't have, and may never have, "so great a faith".
great comment. we can never know what goes on in the heart of another. we can never know all of the obstacles in another's life. i have had to catch myself before, as i start to form opinions about the faithfulness of someone who i thought fell to a fairly easy test. i am sure that there are hundreds of times that i have not caught myself to every one time that i have caught myself. why? because i am mortal, ignorant, and prideful.
how do i know that in their shoes, i would have passed the 'easy' test? i don't. i am not aware of others' family issues, their fears, their weaknesses, their dependencies, their pain. i cannot judge anyone but myself, and i hardly even do that well enough.
we may never know or understand what causes a saint to become an athiest, or one of the faithful to become one of the lost and spiritually crushed. but in the end, that is not our job anyway. our job is to look past that, and to love them unconditionally, to reserve judgment for God. sadly, it is far easier to decide that they were weak, or lacked spiritual conviction.
to form negative conclusions about the mote that obscures their vision...
Anyone else find a huge, disturbing problem with that story?
No, as a Child of God I find it it extremely encouraging and it demonstrates God's sovereignty and the meaning of true faith, but I don't expect unbelievers to agree with this or understand it.
Yes, God communicates with us, ask any believer. They hear Him.
No, I wouldn't want to trade places with anyone or wish that anyone would have to walk in my shows either.
And finally, there's nothing admirable about suffering. That's what I said.
What is admirable is the sufferer, the person who can suffer and still hold their heads high and trust God without wallowing in their own self-pity about how bad they've got it.
You do realize that there are others out there suffering more than you right? There's handicapped people who can't even type on a computer or afford one or afford internet access. There's starving people who'd give anything for the scraps off your table. There's parents out there, right now, kissing their dying child good bye. In the amount of time it's taken me to write this post, do you have any idea how many people have died from disease, war, starvation and any number of other things?
We think we know suffering? Wonder what a Holocaust survivor could teach any of us about suffering.
We're suffering alright, but it's from an attitude of ungratefulness.
What are we thankful for?
Job knew. Job figured it out.
Then he fell to the ground in worship and said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."
In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing. Job1:20-22
Comparing someone's suffering to another's rarely is a form of comfort. It is an attempt to diminish or dismiss it.
I think atheists are very aware of human suffering. You don't know me, and don't know any attempts I have done to help anyone. I have been there when people died, and all I could do was offer them my hand.
I don't need a god to go and help my fellow man. In fact, I think I value life even more, because I don't ascribe to any afterlife. I value animals very much too, because in some ways, they are superior to us in how they exist. They do not do malice or evil to each other, even to us, and even the most vicious animal acts out of instict, protection or predatory reasons.
I've read a lot about the Job story. When I was a Christian, I dismissed it as a parable. In fact, it was very difficult to decide how much of the bible was parable and how much was supposed to be taken at face value.
I had sympathy for Job. He was loyal to God, and God made an example of him to Satan.
I never had any God talk to me. I didn't ask for anything anymore, I just wanted to communicate. I heard all the reasons why God didn't talk to me.
"You weren't sincere enough"
"You didn't believe enough"
and so forth.
Only I can know my own sincerity. No one else can judge that. I gave it all many tries over my lifetime. I have boxes of books in my garage about religion. I read the best, from Augustine to CS Lewis. I attended bible classes. I got tired of being told I wasn't doing enough to get God to talk to me. I never heard a voice. Not one word. And I wasn't going to pretend to be accepted by anyone. I heard plenty of people tell me that God spoke to them, some even claimed to have seen him, but when I pressed these things, they just said it was a feeling they had, they never heard a thing, or they saw God in other people or things, which sounded like Pantheism to me.
The ceiling never talks back.
But if you look at the stars and the immensity of this universe, you can feel how old it is. And it is very impersonal and it just goes on and on.
Comparing someone's suffering to another's rarely is a form of comfort. It is an attempt to diminish or dismiss it.
I think atheists are very aware of human suffering. You don't know me, and don't know any attempts I have done to help anyone. I have been there when people died, and all I could do was offer them my hand.
I don't need a god to go and help my fellow man. In fact, I think I value life even more, because I don't ascribe to any afterlife. I value animals very much too, because in some ways, they are superior to us in how they exist. They do not do malice or evil to each other, even to us, and even the most vicious animal acts out of instict, protection or predatory reasons.
I've read a lot about the Job story. When I was a Christian, I dismissed it as a parable. In fact, it was very difficult to decide how much of the bible was parable and how much was supposed to be taken at face value.
I had sympathy for Job. He was loyal to God, and God made an example of him to Satan.
I never had any God talk to me. I didn't ask for anything anymore, I just wanted to communicate. I heard all the reasons why God didn't talk to me.
"You weren't sincere enough"
"You didn't believe enough"
and so forth.
Only I can know my own sincerity. No one else can judge that. I gave it all many tries over my lifetime. I have boxes of books in my garage about religion. I read the best, from Augustine to CS Lewis. I attended bible classes. I got tired of being told I wasn't doing enough to get God to talk to me. I never heard a voice. Not one word. And I wasn't going to pretend to be accepted by anyone. I heard plenty of people tell me that God spoke to them, some even claimed to have seen him, but when I pressed these things, they just said it was a feeling they had, they never heard a thing, or they saw God in other people or things, which sounded like Pantheism to me.
The ceiling never talks back.
But if you look at the stars and the immensity of this universe, you can feel how old it is. And it is very impersonal and it just goes on and on.
You don't believe in God, yet you criticize how He does things? I don't get it...
You don't believe in God, yet you criticize how He does things? I don't get it...
freedom
The criticism is of the concept of...
I once was a Christian. I came to realize it was a myth like all the other religions.
All religions claim to be true. All claim to have the real God and the truth.
I realized that when the Greek gods, etc., were flushed away, I was hanging on to a concept with no validation.
It made no sense that a supreme being would need to hide and make me guess if he is there.
The criticism is of the concept of...
I once was a Christian. I came to realize it was a myth like all the other religions.
All religions claim to be true. All claim to have the real God and the truth.
I realized that when the Greek gods, etc., were flushed away, I was hanging on to a concept with no validation.
It made no sense that a supreme being would need to hide and make me guess if he is there.
If he was hiding, we would cease to exist. He is everywhere, and can be heard when we are still, and contrite.
You do hear him, you do see him. I think you have chosen to interpret the experience in a dis believing manner. Which is your right. What you are presenting is a position of everyone else should not believe, see, or feel.
That is not just atheism, it is Anti-Christ. Which puts you in a place that is not envious
Your argument that every church thinks they are the true church is just pointing out that man is wrong on many fronts, that should not be a basis for dismissing the experience of life and creation...
My advice would be to stop looking to man for answers and go within, where your decisions and actions are germinated every minute of every day.
That is where you will find. Every day that you seal your mind to dis belief, is a day that takes you further from the truth of why we are here.
The criticism is of the concept of...
I once was a Christian. I came to realize it was a myth like all the other religions.
All religions claim to be true. All claim to have the real God and the truth.
I realized that when the Greek gods, etc., were flushed away, I was hanging on to a concept with no validation.
It made no sense that a supreme being would need to hide and make me guess if he is there.
I believe when Adam hid from God, and God asked him where he was, God knew all along exactly where Adam was.
I believe it's us, that do the hiding.
Wow..I dont recall who started this thread..but I thank you!
After reading the different opinions/facts based on the bible and your faith, I must say, I now question the book of Job in more depth.
I remember the first time I read Job, I was going through alot, physically, mentally, spiritually..lots was going on. I read it for inspiration..but was more discouraged than ever. Hmm.
I really am on the fence with this book. As I read some of the comments..what comes to mind is the scripture that talks about "God doesnt put anything in our lives that we can't handle". Apparently, God knew that Job would surpass this test which is why he used him as an example of how faithful one needs to be. Job was so much more fruitful towards the end. But then again, I understand how one would say,but how fruitful was he if he lost everything he had..especially his family! Wow..i'm so close to my loved ones..I can't imagine them being replaced.
The book of Job is a study in choice. Does he choose to remain strong in the face of adversity or does he choose to let it go to hell, so to speak? He chose to retain, what for him, was strength. What did Faust choose, or Dorian Grey? They chose to sell their souls to gain what they thought was wanted in their life. Job did not.
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