Jesus: if you want to be my disciple, you have to hate your family (spirits, gospel)

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by nateswift

Neither do I have a problem with such picking apart, but when one cherry picks without taking into consideration the whole message and/or cultural idiom to bolster a clearly hostile opinion, I do. I don't defend this particular passage as such, but to say that it means that Jesus was setting up a cult in the face of everything else He taught about relating to the people around you, pardon me, but your bias is showing.

What was cherry picked? Cultural idiom? Please!

The verse says what it says, and it means what it says. At it is against anything that should be taught to families.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Shirina

But there it is in black and white. [Jesus] issued a number of decrees that intimates the cult status of his "congregation." For instance, his decree about not saving or planning for tomorrow - live only for today and do not worry about the future. Obviously a new member of a cult might indeed be worried about how he is going to survive, where his meals will come from, where he'll sleep every night. Put all those thoughts aside and just trust in Jesus.

Jesus was another prophet of doom, which were a dime a dozen in his day (and come to think of it, still are). He (and Paul, who at least agrees with Jesus on this point) taught that the End Was Near ("even at the door!"), where, apparently, it has remained for the ensuing two millennia.

This embarrassing, inconvenient truth is not something the church likes to remind people of, so Jesus' apocalyptic message is toned way down, causing his "hate your father and mother for my sake" and "sell all you have" statements to seem incongruous and in need of the usual lipstick-on-a-pig apologetics.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Originally Posted by cupper3

Luke 14:26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

This closely echoes verse 55 found in the Gospel of Thomas, which even the most ardent Christian scholars consider to be fraudulent and pure fiction.

(55) "Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not hate his brothers and sisters and take up his cross in my way will not be worthy of me." http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html

So much for family values.

[bulmabriefs144]

Originally Posted by cupper3

Luke 14:26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

There is no way in Hades that I'm going to start hating my family just because some scripture says so.

Are you?

And I suspect somebody is going to give us 18 paragraphs of why one should not take this literally and why it might be out of context.

It is at the end of a parable, it is in context, it's clear what it says, it's clear what it means, it's absolutely against anything that my morals would accept.

The word "hate" in Hebrew does not mean "to hate" necessarily. I worried about this too.

The articles I looked up on the matter reference other Bible passages, where they talk about how people hate someone. Except for areas where they outright hate someone, it usually meant "to love someone else more."

Essentially, honor your father and mother stops when they prevent you from living out your life to your Christian purpose, when you live your life to please them. And what is your Christian purpose? To help the poor, to be a light to your community, to do good works wherever you go? Maybe. It can also be to create a better world by example, even by helping oneself (if I, an LGBT person lived out my dream, despite their protests about "people will judge you" than the world sees that this can work for others, and I will have helped others just by being).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QThNEE1l3U

1. Jesus calls us o'er the tumult
of our life's wild, restless sea;
day by day his sweet voice soundeth,
saying, "Christian, follow me!"

2. As of old the apostles heard it
by the Galilean lake,
turned from home and toil and kindred,
leaving all for Jesus' sake.

3. Jesus calls us from the worship
of the vain world's golden store,
from each idol that would keep us,
saying, "Christian, love me more!"

4. In our joys and in our sorrows,
days of toil and hours of ease,
still he calls, in cares and pleasures,
"Christian, love me more than these!"

Do not hate as in hate. Love something else more. Whether yourself or others, whatever. You weren't put on this Earth to people-please or to suit the in-laws (think of a typical Jewish family in films, and you know exactly what Jesus meant). You were put her to figure out your life, and leave a mark on it.

[2bpurrfect]

To the contrary. The state of things then and probably now, was such that, some family members would strongly oppose Jesus and try to pry his followers away from Him, punish them , force them. But since He knew that was coming, He forewarned people that in that day and age and place, among that society,(and now), to be his follower meant that they would have to choose not to stay with the family members who were truly dangerous and vicious enemies of Christ, but break away from them to stick with their Lord. so, you couldn't be more wrong. The families of the time and even more recently , some would even beat or kill their kids rather than allow them to become Christians. THINK OF WHAT MUSLIMS DO, SAY, IN SAUDI ARABIA. They kill their children, brothers, sisters who convert to Christianity. So these people would have to abandon their families or their life ends, if they become Believers in Christ. They couldn't be a believer and things just stay the same at home. They would have to make a choice. Either or. Reject one, or the other.

And they would also have to go wherever He sent them before or after His crucifixion, to do His work -GOD'S WORK- real not imaginary , not fake, but absolutely vital to the transformation of humankind into a good and healthy society. (He is spiritually alive and still directs His church, which i am sure you have no clue about). This world was super super sick and depraved back then- far worse than it is today for the most part, the Christianized part of the world has benefitted immensely with every kind of improvement. Just think about it for a while. I realize that's a new thing for you.

You speak of things you know nothing of.

Originally Posted by Shirina

It's the cult-like nature of Jesus's words that resonate with truth.

Most cults desire to have its members completely and hopelessly dependent upon the cult leader and its other members for the things a family and friends would normally provide. The more cut-off and isolated a cult member is from the rest of the world, the less likely and less possible it is for a member to leave.

Since Christianity essentially started off as a messianic cult taken from Jewish prophecy, it stands to reason that the cult leader - Jesus - would demand that his followers forsake family and friends and follow only him. I know people are wont to assume Jesus was a nice, decent, sinless man, the Son of God, so he would never behave in such a cult-like way.

But there it is in black and white. He issued a number of decrees that intimates the cult status of his "congregation." For instance, his decree about not saving or planning for tomorrow - live only for today and do not worry about the future. Obviously a new member of a cult might indeed be worried about how he is going to survive, where his meals will come from, where he'll sleep every night. Put all those thoughts aside and just trust in Jesus.

Trust in the cult. Trust in its leadership - the council of 12 apostles. Thus when Jesus came back to Cult Headquarters carrying fish, loaves of bread, kegs of wine, etc. it was "a miracle" ... and that's how it was written. Food and drink was conjured from thin air, such a "miracle" it was. Come, follow Jesus. Put your trust in him, expand the cult, and infinite loaves and fishes will be yours! Just don't ask where he got them since I doubt magical food has been thoroughly tested and approved by the Food & Drug Administration.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by perry335654

You are correct in that we hate only in a sense that we should love the love the Lord so so much more to follow Him, so hate is in a comparative sense. It is not to say we hate our parents it is to say we love the love the Lord tons more and willing to follow Him

That's really not much better than simply hating your family and turning your back on them.

This has always been one of the latent dangers of religion - the idea of putting the wants and whimsical desires of a non-verbal god ahead of the wants and needs of real people.

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by Shirina

That's really not much better than simply hating your family and turning your back on them.

This has always been one of the latent dangers of religion - the idea of putting the wants and whimsical desires of a non-verbal god ahead of the wants and needs of real people.

My experience has been that it is actually people putting their own wants and desires forward, and covering them by concluding that they are identical with god's wants and desires. In such cases religion is not the cause, it is the tool.

[Shirina]

Originally Posted by 2bpurrfect

To the contrary. The state of things then and probably now, was such that, some family members would strongly oppose Jesus and try to pry his followers away from Him, punish them , force them.

Of course they would, and you would, too. The only reason why you think joining Jesus's cult was (and still is) a positive thing is because you're in the cult. But at the time, Christianity was just another half-insane sect with a charismatic leader taking people away from traditional values and beliefs.

If another Jesus-like person arose today and began leading your children away from your traditional values and beliefs, you'd be throwing a fit, too. Unfortunately, as I said, you can't see that because you're arguing from within the cult and, naturally, you want everyone to join it.

But from where I sit, there is no difference between your cult, that cult, the cult over there, and the cult down the street. Just because one cult is really popular - enough so to be called a "religion" - doesn't mean it's the One, True belief system. But then again, that's what all cults say, isn't it. Theirs is the One, True belief system and everyone else worships false gods.

Originally Posted by 2bpurrfect

But since He knew that was coming, He forewarned people that in that day and age and place, among that society,(and now), to be his follower meant that they would have to choose not to stay with the family members who were truly dangerous and vicious enemies of Christ, but break away from them to stick with their Lord.

And that's precisely what a cult leader would do. He would demonize friends and family members that would oppose the idea of a loved one running off to follow some long-haired, sandal-wearing, nut who threatens their traditional values.

And if you had been a parent in the 1st Century A.D., you most likely would have objected to this Jesus cult, too. And, if Christianity began today and some guy claimed to be the "son of God" and the messiah from Jewish prophecy, you'd be having a conniption, too, if one of your kids wanted to run off and join his cult. The only difference is that you're in the cult and the cult is exceptionally large today in modern times. But back then, it wasn't.

The result is Jesus, just like any modern cult leader, telling his followers that anyone and everyone who disbelieves, who doesn't want you following me, is the enemy. Even if they are your own parents.

In that sense, you're making my case for me.

Originally Posted by 2bpurrfect

so, you couldn't be more wrong.

Uh, no ... in fact, what you said only proved that I couldn't be more correct.

Originally Posted by 2bpurrfect

The families of the time and even more recently , some would even beat or kill their kids rather than allow them to become Christians.

While I certainly don't advocate beating and killing kids who want to join some strange cult, that doesn't imply that joining the cult was the right thing to do. Obviously, some parents were pretty desperate to avoid having their sons and daughters falling for another snake oil salesman, especially if members of the cult were being persecuted, executed, fed to the lions, and whatnot. You would want to protect your children, too.

Again, I'll reiterate the fact that you see nothing wrong with the cult mentality because you joined the cult. But I can guarantee you that if we were talking about Heavens' Gate, the Branch Davidians, or the New Latter Day Saints, you would be beating your kids too in order to keep them from joining. But because we're talking about your cult, the one you've decided to join, you just can't see anything wrong with it.

Originally Posted by 2bpurrfect

THINK OF WHAT MUSLIMS DO, SAY, IN SAUDI ARABIA. They kill their children, brothers, sisters who convert to Christianity. So these people would have to abandon their families or their life ends, if they become Believers in Christ. They couldn't be a believer and things just stay the same at home. They would have to make a choice. Either or. Reject one, or the other.

None of that shows that Christianity wasn't a cult when the Bible was written. We don't even know if Jesus even said that about hating your family. Who knows who wrote that. But unless someone was following Jesus around with a pad and pencil, it is highly unlikely that all of these exact quotes from Jesus are really exact quotes. That just makes it worse since the Christ Cult isn't even getting its marching orders from Christ. One has to remember that the New Testament was not contemporary with Christ.

Originally Posted by 2bpurrfect

And they would also have to go wherever He sent them before or after His crucifixion, to do His work -GOD'S WORK- real not imaginary , not fake, but absolutely vital to the transformation of humankind into a good and healthy society.

There's no such thing as "God's work," just people thinking they're doing God's work. If they have to believe they're doing God's work in order to be motivated, that's great. But it's still just people doing work for other people - and that's not a bad thing at all.

As for transforming humankind into a good and healthy society, well, that's debatable. History shows that there is a direct correlation between societies becoming more moral as they become more secular.

Originally Posted by 2bpurrfect

(He is spiritually alive and still directs His church, which i am sure you have no clue about). This world was super super sick and depraved back then- far worse than it is today for the most part, the Christianized part of the world has benefitted immensely with every kind of improvement. Just think about it for a while. I realize that's a new thing for you.

Now, you're absolutely right - things were super-sick and depraved "back then." And guess who was in charge in those days? Oh right ... the church. Gee, coincidence? Of course, *ahem* I'm sure history is quite new to you. But if you actually paid attention in history class instead of drooling on your desk, you would have learned that the most depraved, immoral, bloodsoaked time in all of Western human history took place when we were all ruled by religion and your equally sick and immoral God. Not only were religious laws harshly enforced with almost no mercy or forgiveness - your religious leaders stood around as royalty and the aristocracy starved out entire populations while they grew fat off peasant labors. Even from a social standpoint, your religion failed. In fact, it failed on every front except for certain monastic orders that had the good sense enough to maintain libraries (the ones that were saved from being burnt by zealot Christians.)

Even right now, as I write this, there are Christian fundamentalists defending pedophiles and baby-rapists while the entire Catholic church shuffles around kiddie-fiddling priests so they avoid prosecution. I dunno, maybe things haven't gotten all that much better since those medieval days. Fortunately, we have secular laws in place that keep religion from screwing the pooch with civilization like it did the LAST time it was left in charge.

What you fail to understand is that the Western world benefited from scientific discovery, not your primitive superstitions. In fact, the Western world improved despite religion, not because of it.

Originally Posted by 2bpurrfect

You speak of things you know nothing of.

Hmm, so you want to go there with me, do you? Are you sure you want to square up with me in a "who can be the most cheeky in a debate post" contest? I'll give you a few days to think it over. I'm nice like that.

[Freak80]

Yes, "hate your family" is only one of the many "not so nice" teachings of Jesus. Both the conservative and liberal Christians must "explain away" this teaching in order to gain (and keep) followers.

[Pleroo]

Originally Posted by Shirina

That's really not much better than simply hating your family and turning your back on them.

This has always been one of the latent dangers of religion - the idea of putting the wants and whimsical desires of a non-verbal god ahead of the wants and needs of real people.

What I understand to be the most important teaching of Jesus, is summed up as, "Love God and love others." There are things within the bible that point to the idea that the way one loves God IS by loving others. So, either the passage in question in this thread would need to be completely ignored, since it is in direct opposition to love, or one would have to find a different way to understand it than with a literal approach. Could the meaning I take away from that passage be at odds with what the original speaker or author meant if I approach it in that way? Absolutely. Doesn't matter to me, because I have no need to defend the book or the authors as infallible, only to take away from the writings those things that are helpful -- the same way I would treat any book that is meant to address our spirituality or psychological/emotional well-being.

In my experience, I had to be disentangled from the religion (a fundamentalist form of Christianity) that all of my family of origin embraces because that religion was harmful to me and distorted the way I viewed life and other people. The love of all people that was supposed to be (imo) at the core of that religion was obscured and warped by so many of the doctrines. And, beyond just the religion, there were some dysfunctional behaviors within my family that were really damaging.

So, to me, the passage being discussed here isn't talking about hating family, but about understanding that for some of us, in many ways the hold our family of origin has on us is unhealthy and, in that case, we need to break free of that hold. That can be really difficult to do, but it is necessary if one wants to grow and change. It doesn't mean we actually hate our family, nor even that we need to physically distance ourselves from them necessarily. But, in our minds, we have to be set free from whatever unhealthy attitudes have been bred into us through the dysfunction of our family of origin.

That's what I would take away from that bible passage.