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There is absolutely no logical or scientific explanation for how a complete stranger knew to come bring him the white rose. Don't believe the story? Then what's the alternative explanation? Doyle has shared this story countless times for most of his career. Am I to believe that this extremely talented and kind man has spent decades telling a lie when it gains him nothing at all?
Nothing to gain? It gives him an interesting story to share which gets him invited to gigs and provides a certain amount of fame which in turn feeds his family. So he has a great deal to gain, including now, preserving his credibility by not admitting he lied all those decades. Not to mention that it would be cover for him trying to prop up his daughter's expectation that god would give her a white rose. God of course wouldn't hand it to the daughter or drop it from the sky, it would come from Dad. Dad is making an extraordinary claim for which any sane person is perfectly justified thinking the most likely source of the flower is a florist paid by Dad for the rose.
Now I'm not saying he's lying. Maybe he's not lying or hasn't allowed a story to become embellished in the telling, despite the obvious benefits of doing so. I don't know. In fact neither do you. You vouch for his character but don't claim to know him personally. You don't know the church or the lady in the church who came up to him after the service was over and no one but she and the storyteller was around to bear witness. You haven't interviewed his wife or daughter for their version of the story to see if it matches. So let us give him the benefit of the doubt, with the understanding that it is just that: the benefit of the doubt -- and more than he deserves for an extraordinary miraculous positive claim for which he has not presented anything but his personal story that he's telling, backed up by nothing at all.
What is the most likely explanation for this? What is the least likely? Your answer will be influenced by your beliefs and assumptions. I don't believe in any deities, much less yours, so I assess the odds of this being god's work differently, but let us put all that aside. I also have had experience with otherwise kind and decent people who lie to themselves and therefore to me, particularly about certain things. But let us put that aside and just assume I've had spectacularly bad luck.
Let's turn this around. Are you as willing to conclude that god doesn't answer prayer if I present a heartwarming (or heart rending) story about a time that he didn't? Particularly if the person relating the story is talented and appears kind? Because I can come up with stories such as those. Including that he NEVER grows missing limbs but favors "miracles" that aren't verifiable (you can't see a tumor inside someone's body disappear or determine whether someone standing from a wheelchair is healed or just full of adrenalin and maybe collapses just outside the tent -- or is even a hired actor).
The way to settle things like this isn't dueling stories or dueling claims or dueling videos. It is to set up a properly designed experiment with proper controls for confirmation bias and observe a decent sampling of healings or answered prayer. If god answers prayer for example it seems it would be pretty easy to find someone with a need that only god could fulfill -- and as the host in your video clip suggested, make the request as specific as possible. It should be possible to line up a dozen people who are missing a limb, ask god to provide the missing limb on the spot in front of the cameras, and see what happens.
But here is where the equivocations begin. "You can't tempt god". "God is not a candy machine". "God doesn't always answer yes". "We walk by faith, not by sight".
So isn't it simpler to just admit that there's no evidential basis for believing such things? It's not a crime or a moral failing, after all. Some people might think poorly of your willingness to believe without evidence, as they prefer to deal in reality, but it's a free country and as Mark Twain once said, a man needs a few illusions so he has something to throw overboard when his boat runs into a storm.
I have met theists who admit they have no evidence but choose to believe what they believe anyway and are happy to let me choose my beliefs as well. I have no quarrel with such people.
Why is it so important to you to cling to this narrative of extraordinary claims and then try to sell anecdotes by seemingly well meaning people as "evidence"?
If you are having a discussion with someone of a different belief set then is it really too hard to show a degree of respect for something that is important in their life? Ridicule and mockery have no place.
I think the lack of respect you perceive is due to the poor arguments for why you hold the belief, rather than the belief itself. Yes, I'm sure it happens that flippant comments are made but this IS a discussion board about religious topics, and it is not a one way street Jeff.
The Christian forums are for purely Christian topics, so if you don't wish to debate, and run the risk of making a bad case for your beliefs, then why even post on the main board?
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If you believe robbing banks to be sinful, does that mean you expouse hatred for bank robbers? No, we believe the act to be sinful. Your side falsely personalizes it and accuse us of hating the person.
You are actually illustrating my point here.
You are comparing homosexuality with robbing a bank? And you think that is not nasty or is that being respectful to a gay person? It IS insulting to them, just as equating what they do to pedophilia, bestiality, or rape is as well.
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Baloney. I can say that I don't agree with a belief set without ridiculing and mocking it in a condescending fashion which is exact the tone and attitude I get from the majority of atheists.
You just did ridicule and condescend to gay people with your last comment. The only difference, which validates the meme I posed, is that the Christian is calling it persecution or insult or ridicule when challenged on what they believe, and calling it sinful and "of course" worthy of ridicule when it is not.
If you are having a discussion with someone of a different belief set then is it really too hard to show a degree of respect for something that is important in their life? Ridicule and mockery have no place.
If you believe robbing banks to be sinful, does that mean you expouse hatred for bank robbers? No, we believe the act to be sinful. Your side falsely personalizes it and accuse us of hating the person.
Baloney. I can say that I don't agree with a belief set without ridiculing and mocking it in a condescending fashion which is exact the tone and attitude I get from the majority of atheists.
If I have a belief that is very important in my life, it should be respected regardless of what it is? Is that what you are saying? You and your ilk certainly don't respect the beliefs of others. In fact, you actively campaign against them. So let me ask you Jeff, what makes you think you are any different?
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Your mockery only proves once again that you don't want evidence so I won't bother again.
Oh no, Jeff, I would LOVE evidence. You have not provided any. So please, provide us with some REAL evidence. My "mockery" is directed at the "fire hand" that you try to pass off as evidence.
I think the lack of respect you perceive is due to the poor arguments for why you hold the belief, rather than the belief itself. Yes, I'm sure it happens that flippant comments are made but this IS a discussion board about religious topics, and it is not a one way street Jeff.
The Christian forums are for purely Christian topics, so if you don't wish to debate, and run the risk of making a bad case for your beliefs, then why even post on the main board?
You are actually illustrating my point here.
You are comparing homosexuality with robbing a bank? And you think that is not nasty or is that being respectful to a gay person? It IS insulting to them, just as equating what they do to pedophilia, bestiality, or rape is as well.
You just did ridicule and condescend to gay people with your last comment. The only difference, which validates the meme I posed, is that the Christian is calling it persecution or insult or ridicule when challenged on what they believe, and calling it sinful and "of course" worthy of ridicule when it is not.
I think the lack of respect you perceive is due to the poor arguments for why you hold the belief, rather than the belief itself. Yes, I'm sure it happens that flippant comments are made but this IS a discussion board about religious topics, and it is not a one way street Jeff.
And yet your side constantly resorts to Argumentum ad Hominem fallacy by attacking my personal character instead of the actual argument.
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Originally Posted by MartinEden99
The Christian forums are for purely Christian topics, so if you don't wish to debate, and run the risk of making a bad case for your beliefs, then why even post on the main board?
The Christian forum has been overrun by atheists as well.
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Originally Posted by MartinEden99
You are actually illustrating my point here.
You are comparing homosexuality with robbing a bank? And you think that is not nasty or is that being respectful to a gay person? It IS insulting to them, just as equating what they do to pedophilia, bestiality, or rape is as well.
Again, you force a direct side by side comparison which is clearly not my intention. I NEVER said homosexuality was just as bad as robbing a bank. The equality is that the two examples are both sins.
Sorry but I'm not going to bow down to PC culture and deny the truth of the Bible because that truth offends you.
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Originally Posted by MartinEden99
You just did ridicule and condescend to gay people with your last comment. The only difference, which validates the meme I posed, is that the Christian is calling it persecution or insult or ridicule when challenged on what they believe, and calling it sinful and "of course" worthy of ridicule when it is not.
Really, how is simply stating a belief that homosexuality is a sin equate to "making fun" of gay people?
And yet your side constantly resorts to Argumentum ad Hominem fallacy by attacking my personal character instead of the actual argument.
The Christian forum has been overrun by atheists as well.
Again, you force a direct side by side comparison which is clearly not my intention. I NEVER said homosexuality was just as bad as robbing a bank. The equality is that the two examples are both sins.
Sorry but I'm not going to bow down to PC culture and deny the truth of the Bible because that truth offends you.
Really, how is simply stating a belief that homosexuality is a sin equate to "making fun" of gay people?
Jeffrey, Jeffrey, Jeffrey... It isn't just that you state it is a sin. It is that you try to keep them from having the same rights as other citizens, simply because they are gay. It is the fact that you constantly make it sound like they are sub-human. You compare them the pedophiles, and bestiality. So I don't know why you think we are simply making things up, because these things come out of YOUR mouth, as well as others with your beliefs. You can hide behind your Bible all you want, but we are going to call it as we see it. Being homophobic is almost a requirement for the fundy belief system.
Again, you force a direct side by side comparison which is clearly not my intention. I NEVER said homosexuality was just as bad as robbing a bank. The equality is that the two examples are both sins. Sorry but I'm not going to bow down to PC culture and deny the truth of the Bible because that truth offends you.
Really, how is simply stating a belief that homosexuality is a sin equate to "making fun" of gay people?
In regards to the bolded part....but you are saying others should bow down to what you find offensive. That's the very essence of PC culture.
That's the point. If you really believe the bible purports homosexuality to be wrong, then your belief is, itself an insult to some people. No different than believing that women are property of men and equivalent to assess (donkeys if the filter gets it).
And there will be people who vehemently disagree that such a belief is even reasonable to hold. So unreasonable that they ridicule it because they consider it to be harmful and possibly bigoted. And they also question the very reasons for holding such a belief. And if the reasons for holding the belief are considered to be unreasonable, then those reasons are ridiculed. And making a habit of this kind of thing leads people to question the very person holding such unreasonable ( in their estimation) justifications for such unreasonable beliefs. Has it occurred to you that there just might be a reason for such reaction?
But to the point, nobody is suggesting you shouldn't be honest about your beliefs or tone down your language. It is you and other Christians who are trying to invoke PC culture where you believe that others must afford your beliefs a level of respect which your beliefs themselves do not respect of others.
So rather than play the persecuted card, why not do your research and make better arguments for your beliefs. After all, this is a discussion board about a topic that is not usually a topic for polite company for this very reason....because people get offended by what other people think.
this is a discussion board about a topic that is not usually a topic for polite company for this very reason....because people get offended by what other people think.
people are offended by your abusive behavior
that has nothing to do with whatever views you happen to be trying to express
because as soon as someone engages in insult, ridicule, mockery, sarcasm, name-calling they lose all credibility.
they become the equivalent of a 3-year old toddler running through the room shouting "poopy diapers! you're a poopy diaper stinky face" this is age-appropriate for a toddler. It is not amusing or impressive behavior by grown-ups on a message board, particularly those who seek to impress others with their grandiose boasting and arrogant claims of superior intelligence.
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