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Originally Posted by Eusebius
Now, now ARQ, I'm sure the archaeologists have found pre-diluvian metal working but just either mis-dated it accidentally or on purpose to further their agenda.
But let's say they have not found pre-diluvian metal working yet. That does not disprove the Bible is wrong about that. It just proves the archaeologist has not found it yet.
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That's not the first time you've accused the Scientists of a conspiracy to conceal the truth. And the way it works is not to believe a dubious claim like the steel -framing technology you need to prop up your Ark story -belief until there is some good reason to believe it (the Bible is not a good reason) and it is not to believe mythological stories in the hope that some evidence will turn up.
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"Through their interaction with other civilizations of the middle east, the Minoans were aware and utilized the art of metalworking Their skillful jewelry creations adorned the collections of noble palace inhabitants and were even exported around the Mediterranean. "The archaeological museums in Crete present a number of gold artifacts, along with an assortment of copper instruments that date back to 2300 BC. Copper was a much sought after commodity during this time, and it does not appear naturally in Crete. Most likely the Minoans imported copper from Cyprus.
The skill of the Minoan metal smiths was renown in the ancient world, and many artisans worked abroad in mainland Greece and the Aegean islands. The Mycenaeans learned the art of inlaying bronze with gold from the Minoans." (from: Minoan Culture
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Eusebius,mate, your crafty dishonesty in the cause of your faith is well known, you don't need to put it on display. The Minoans had copper, gold and perhaps even bronze before the collapse. They did not have iron. If they had, some trace of it would have been found. Neither did the Egyptians, Babylonians or anybody else before around the 10th c BC. And on top of that you need to know how to refine and temper it to make steel framing suitable to keep a huge wooden boat from coming apart.
You cannot do this by trying to make archaeology support you. In any case you dismiss the findings of archaeology and any other science if it doesn't suit you - as we see with the Conspiracy theory. So there is no aspect of your argument that holds water, is logically or scientifically sound or is even consistent or honest.
Just sayin'. Your case is all faith -based on a literal reading of Genesis as actual fact and employing a huge range of invalid, dishonest and hypocritical arguments to prop the faith up. Sorry mate. You know we are blood brothers, but this is what culthinking does to decent people - it makes them fiddle the logic and the science to avoid rethinking their beliefs.
And before you say it - yes, we rethink and question all the time. That is why (though the theists intent on discrediting science in the hope of making unsupported claims look more feasible make it an accusation) are able to claim science is always changing its mind. That is what makes it stronger in the end because it seeks always to match the theory to the evidence.
Bible apologists try to fiddle the evidence to fit the theory - like trying have steel -framing for the Ark. I find it most amusing...look folks, I know this is about Noah's GPS system "Interpreted" as a raven and a dove, but this idea of advanced Technology ...indeed magically advanced in order to get all the "Kinds" on the Ark and keep them all alive for a year and another couple of years until a sustainable ecosystem had restored on top of the fifty -foot mud deposits Genesis literalists point to as Evidence...that practical feasibility is constantly sought for by Ark -enthusiasts in hopes to make it look workable in normal circumstances.
It would be so tempting to have God wave his magic wand, but that would put the whole thing back on a faith -basis, wouldn't it? And indeed a bit of wand waving - just to help Noah develop his steel tempering technology or have all the animal march to the ark or inflate the mountains in order to turn that flood water into oceans (1) is cautiously utilized. But the more you need to have Magic, the less need there is to have a Flood at all.
Why indeed? Oh, I know...God has His reasons. The best answer I know is that it was a lesson to humans. Well, in that case, why not just put the lesson in the Bible? It doesn't actually need to have happened and indeed the evidence suggests that it didn't. What you think of that, Eusebius?
In your own words..prove me wrong. Oh, and Jesus was simply backing his dad's story up. he knew it wasn't right to lie, but, as in so much of the Bible, it's ok to lie or dissemble in a good cause.
So why, Eusebius mate, can't Genesis be what evidence suggests - non -literal mythology? You can say that God Inspired it to make a teaching -point. I can say that it is simply mythology - like Ganesh's elephant head. THEN we can agree to differ.
(1) I already pointed out how deep it had to be in order that Ararat could have a snowline to support Noah's freeze drying industry just in case he would need to preserve eucalyptus leaves...but then, if that looks unsupportable..just change it so Koalas eat granola bars or porridge. No doubt God taught Noah how to make those, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
I don't have to re-interpret anything. Me just giving my opinions, and that is all they are, is not a bad thing. It is good to have discussions on possibilities rather than just flat out say "it never happened" or "it could never happen." Don't you think?
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All the time you say 'your opinions' that's Ok. When you make flat claims about such opinions as facts, it isn't.
Same way, when I say 'the evidence indicates this', then the references (which I concede I haven't seen for a while) to Arq's authority ought to stop. I say nothing on my own authority - not even about my Gospel -theories: I point to the evidence.
Nobody denies your right to believe whatever you want. But when you come peddling them here - never mind slamming them down as Fact, then you can expect to be called on it.
And if your answers are based on craftiness and denial rather than objective assessment of evidence, that will be noted.
Which is where we came in with your out of nowhere accusations of misdating ironworking or even covering the facts up. It only hurts your reputation, not that of archaeology.
P.s I almost missed it! "But let's say they have not found pre-diluvian metal working yet." as though this was debatable. You know where the supposed flood level strata are. If there is anything like metalworking -never mind iron - under these strata..we are talking Triassic here.. let's see the evidence (cue anecdotes of a pick of 19th c design found in a clump of rock aggregate outside a mine -working).
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Good post JerZ 
The thot struck me too. I recall our dear old pal first in a debate about Matthew's two donkeys. I was impressed by his Gospel knowledge but bewildered by his refusal to look at the points I put when he instead went off on Greek translation -hunts. Of course, I know the old blighter' method now. 
)But we goddless bastards, tiny minority Darwinists who yet subvert all of science to conceal the truth and objective pursuers of the best evidence merely because we are terrified of Hellthreat must lose no opportunity of banging nails in the coffin ..hewed at Dover, assembled in the Nye -ham debate and now waiting to slam the lid down on the decaying corpse of Genesis -literalist Creationism. As soon as its adherents stop shaking the bones and crying "It lives"!
