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Predictably and conveniently you completely ignored one important word Jeff. That word is 'VERIFIABLE'. Look at my post again, it's quite clearly shown there.
I'm curious as to why you would find the Office for UK National Statistics to be "unverifiable?' It's probably a quite accurate representation.
Instead you could provide statistics that show in countries that tend to be religious, religious people ARE happier, and in countries that are not very religious the opposite is true. Countries with the lowest religiosity rating are actually the happiest
Quote:
In religious countries, including the U.S., religious people describe themselves as happier (1). In relatively godless countries, such as the Netherlands, or Denmark, religious people are not happier (link is external) (2).
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...people-happier
1. Koenig, H. G. (2008). Medicine, religion and health: Where science and spirituality meet. West Conshohocken, PA: Templeton Foundation Press.
2. Snoep, L. (2008). Religiousness and happiness in three nations. Journal of Happiness Studies, 9, 207-211
Now the reason for the underlying happiness differential is quite telling according to the Psychology Today article:
Quote:
Residents of highly developed countries are happy because their quality of life is better. The key factor may be an expectation of living to old age without fear of extreme poverty. Because they are confident in their own welfare, they have less need of religion as a salve for the difficulties of their lives.
Such confidence increases in societies where there is a well-developed welfare state that redistributes income from the wealthy to the less fortunate (3). This could help explain why the U.S. – with significant gaps in its government safety nets - is more religious than Europe despite having a similar level of economic development
same article (from 2012)
The fact that we have a country that has the largest income differential between social strata may be a critical determining factor in why religion plays a larger role than it does.
Quote:
The remarkable data assembled in The Spirit Level exposes stark differences, not only among the nations of the first world but even within America's fifty states. Almost every modern social problem-poor health, violence, lack of community life, teen pregnancy, mental illness-is more likely to occur in a less-equal society.
The Psychology Today article even points out that while religious people in America are happier, those who are religious in the most religious states--are not.
Quote:
The most religious states are the least happy based on Gallup data. This mirrors the pattern amongst countries
Consider all religions and we find that countries that are highly religious tend to have miserable living conditions--think Somalia or Afghanistan.
Now, here is my disclaimer---I AM a believer--but I don't hide data nor do I try to manipulate it to say something it does not. The UK data from which jeffbase40 tried to make his argument IS accurate--it just doesn't tell the whole story. And if anyone should not be afraid of the truth, nor lack the guts to tell it--it should be a believer.
The interesting thing politically from this, is that it may very well explain why there is such an outcry, among christians no less, against a "social gospel" that uses the government to feed and house its poor, provide day care options and even "free (relatively) education (think Bernie Sanders). Those politicians are benefiting by trying to keep their right wing religious base happy in their religion--just not in their economic conditions. I'm a believer of the opposite sort--the ones we should take care of FIRST, are those least able to care for themselves.
The conclusion surprises me a little given that I have read that some of the "happiest countries" are largely secular. On the other hand, I think Panama, amazingly enough, is considered a fairly happy country coming in somewhere in the top 5, and I'm sure religion thrives there. It may be that the non-religious things in religion are essential to the happiness. I am referring to such things as social interactions and a sense of community. It also might be that atheists face social prejudices, which usually do not make for a lot of giddiness.
What if beliefs are necessary for the kind of social cohesion and support? I don't see many atheists flocking together for social support on par with Christians. Even Unitarians have principles they gather around. Atheists on the other hand, are too diverse in their values to ever have a church-like community.
What if beliefs are necessary for the kind of social cohesion and support? I don't see many atheists flocking together for social support on par with Christians. Even Unitarians have principles they gather around. Atheists on the other hand, are too diverse in their values to ever have a church-like community.
What if beliefs are necessary for the kind of social cohesion and support? I don't see many atheists flocking together for social support on par with Christians. Even Unitarians have principles they gather around. Atheists on the other hand, are too diverse in their values to ever have a church-like community.
That is a fair point. My answer is that people are not overall advanced enough in their thinking to coalesce around reason and logic and seeing greater factual understanding as a fulcrum for social cohesion and support. People tend to regress under stress to the old magical beliefs.
On top of that, atheism is a minority position in society and that inherently at this stage tends to attract introverts and solitary thinkers whose social needs are minimal. I am one such person.
This past Saturday my wife and I went to a dinner party we were invited to and we are both socially exhausted and can't contemplate another such soiree for at least a month. But I know people who would be antsy for another such experience the very next day. As atheism and unaffiliated theism grows, eventually it will pull in more social people who will find ways to have "social cohesion" around it. Right now though I am not particularly concerned about its lack.
You evolved, morally and spiritually. As have many in the past generation or two. Good for you. Good for all of us.
Some, alas, have not.
But they and their ilk are doomed to extinction. The impotent bellowing we hear from "persecuted" Fundamentalists is the overture of their death knell.
I hope I grow as a person every year and not around the waist but in knowledge, wisdom and tolerance.
I think it's pretty clear what I meant. Atheists want to push this society to a point where religion is completely erased from any public eye or ear.
I love it when I write posts about how Christian fundamentalists try to impose their brand of fascism by getting upset whenever atheists try to express their views -- even in the relative privacy of an internet forum set up for religious debate -- only to have Jeffbase completely reverse the premise by claiming instead that it's we atheists who are trying to erase religion from "the public eye or ear."
Any atheist sitting down at a table with Jeff must be forewarned that said table will always sit on a well-oiled swivel.
After all, it doesn't matter that atheists aren't even allowed to say ... put up a billboard, a sign on a bus, or even a little cardboard sign in a front lawn without some Christian vandalizing it. One thing's for certain: Such signs always seem to make the local news for some reason -- usually because of the horrible outrage expressed by Christians in the area that atheists would even dare alert the population that, yes, there is another choice out there that doesn't require one to worship a god.
More to the point however, I won't sit here and lie to you. Yes, I will be very happy when religious fundamentalism is erased from society. That includes fundamentalism attached to ALL religions as we can plainly see what Islamic fundamentalism is bringing us.
Fundamentalism is essentially a message of hate and violence, a message of oppression, tyranny, misogyny, and fear. The fact that we are STILL talking about same-sex marriage and the anger it STILL evokes in the fundamentalist heart speaks volumes of precisely what I'm talking about.
Plus, it goes without saying -- especially since fundamentalists would rather it DID go without me saying it -- that they really don't want atheists saying anything at all. Censorship and the suppression of opposing ideas even here on this forum which has been set up to discuss and debate religious commonalities and differences -- that's the name of their game. Atheists will be told all the time, in one form or another, that this is a religion and spirituality forum so why are we even here? Instead, we should be confined to one of George W. Bush's "Free Speech Zones" far away from where anyone but other atheists would see what we write.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The study shows that that religion has a positive effect on society.
Religion CAN have a positive effect on an individual. However, I've heard more than my fair share of atheists say that their lives have been vastly improved by discarding their religious beliefs, too. Perhaps if people did studies of atheists and asked how many of them regretted leaving their faith, you'd find that they are just as happy with no regrets.
The problem with studies like these is that it's not enough to simply state that religious people are happy because you have to conduct the exact same study with the non-religious and compare the results. Otherwise you have absolutely bupkiss in terms of factual evidence that can be used to shove in the faces of atheists and claim, "See? See? We're happier people!"
In terms of having a positive effect on society, I don't think so ... because it's difficult to define the word "positive." Ask any Nazi in 1938 if they thought Nazism was a positive ideology for Germany and they would have given you a dreamy-eyed look and given you a resounding, "Yes!" They thought their lives were awesome, their society brilliant, their nation the greatest on earth. Did Nazism have a "positive" effect on Germany? You betchya. But was it really positive? Well ... what do YOU think?
No, don't get hung up on some idiotic feigned offense that I compared religion to Nazism because that's not my intent. I'm trying to explain that defining what is positive isn't as cut and dry as you want to make it. Just like the leaders of ISIS no doubt think they are bringing positive change to the world ... or they wouldn't be doing what they're doing.
Which means I don't necessarily buy into the idea that religion brings a positive effect for society. There is absolutely no good deed religion does for society that requires religion. Even the charitable acts that take place occur because good people make them happen, not because of religion. The only beneficial aspect of religion is its organizational characteristics that allow people to band together to make charity drives occur, but if people put their minds to it, that could happen without religion -- and the ability to organize has absolutely NOTHING to do with talking snakes, resurrections, transcendent gods, heaven and hell, ancient holy books, and Bronze Age superstitions. It has to do with good people with good hearts who see the deficiencies in our society and wish to do something about it. No religion needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Gay marriage was NOT voted on by a large majority.
Nor should it be. Allowing society as a whole to vote on the civil rights of a minority group is a perversion of the democratic process -- it's called "the Tyranny of the Majority" or, as it is often compared to: It's like two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
The average voter hasn't so much as glanced at the US Constitution since 6th grade and has absolutely no business voting on whether or not gays have the Constitutional right to marry.
Plus, the only reason why you're complaining about this is because you lost. If the Supreme Court had ruled against same sex marriage, you'd be kissing the Supreme Court's collective butt and defending their decision -- never mind whether or not a "large majority" had had the chance to vote on it.
Our government only works if people like you accept decisions that rule against your wishes. You can't get your way all the time. Just like we didn't get our way when the courts ruled against OUR wishes over the whole Hobby Lobby issue. You win some, you lose some. But if your side is just going to sit around seething in anger and inventing unethical ways to reverse every ruling you don't like so that you get your way all the time (i.e. refusing to allow Obama to appoint the next Supreme Court Justice), then what we really have isn't a democracy at all but a theocratic oligarchy with a fascistic ideology. Nice, huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
It was forced on everyone by the supreme court.
Right, because the Gay Marriage Police stormed your house, hauled away your wife, and forced you to marry a dude at gunpoint, even threatening to torture you unless you said the words "I do" while invoking the name of God. Then as your former wife watched, the Gay Marriage Police forced you to consummate your new gay marriage right there on the living room floor ... with plenty of butt sex.
That's what happened, I presume, because how else could the Supreme Court "force it on everyone."
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
You can find polls that show a pretty much even split.
Who cares about polls? The civil rights of a minority group aren't a popularity contest. It doesn't matter if you find gay love "icky" or "oogy" or if it sends shivers of disgust up and down your spine. Nor does it matter what your Bible says about it, what your religion says about it, or what your God says about it. And it matters even LESS what your God told the Hebrews about it -- because last I checked, Jews only make up roughly 2.1% of the U.S. population (which means all of the crap in the Old Testament means diddly squat unless you're a Jew ... and THAT means no Leviticus, no Deuteronomy, no "Gays are an abomination" or "Gays should be killed," blah blah blah ... because, pssst, I'll let you in on a little secret ....... we don't live in effing ISRAEL!!!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
It's ridiculous to think that 88% of the US population would suddenly find gay marriage good and moral when less than a decade before, the majority was all for laws that preserved traditional marriage.
LOL! Just because someone might be for marriage equality doesn't mean they necessarily believe same-sex marriage is "good" or "moral." It just means THOSE particular Christians have the good sense and political character to realize that they don't have the right to tell anyone else how to live their lives. They understand that, regardless of what they personally believe about what is right for their own lives, they cannot have freedom OF religion if they cannot also have freedom FROM religion. Otherwise, what would stop some other group from gaining political power and forcing Christians by law to engage in some un-Christian immoral practice?
That is why you actually CAN have people who are personally against gay marriage yet still be for the idea of marriage equality. Because ... and grab a chair and sit down just in case this kind of news is a bit shocking for you ... because not all Christians are binary thinkers. In fact, MOST are not binary thinkers which is why MOST are not fundamentalists and science deniers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
I think a lot of people just felt there are more important issues to fret about and it was inevitable anyways.
I wonder how much time and money a Republican president and a Republican controlled senate is going to waste trying to repeal the gay marriage decision while simultaneously trying to yank access to health care out from beneath the feet of tens of millions of Americans. Oh yeah ... that's in between enacting policies of bigotry like banning Muslims entry into the country and spending tens of billions of dollars on a stupid wall to keep out immigrants while Americans at home are suffering due to lack of jobs, lack of health care, lack of functioning infrastructure, lack of government services, and lack of a social safety net. Christian Americans will get to watch helplessly as our vaunted universities fill up with students from secular and atheistic nations because the Americans themselves can't afford higher education thanks to rampant tuition hikes.
It'll just showcase the American Christian mentality.
I call it the "Britney Spears Syndrome." If you ask around, no one seems to like Britney Spears yet somehow she was one of the most popular pop divas in the world. If no one likes her, how did she get to be such a huge star?
By the same token, if you ask most Christians, they'll claim they had nothing to do with what's going on in the country -- yet somehow the current circus of clowns managed to get themselves elected. Either they DID have something to do with it ... or they did nothing. And I suppose the latter is the real problem. Do nothing and the fundamentalists who are never lackadaisical about voting have all the say and all the power.
I love it when I write posts about how Christian fundamentalists try to impose their brand of fascism by getting upset whenever atheists try to express their views -- even in the relative privacy of an internet forum set up for religious debate -- only to have Jeffbase completely reverse the premise by claiming instead that it's we atheists who are trying to erase religion from "the public eye or ear."
Any atheist sitting down at a table with Jeff must be forewarned that said table will always sit on a well-oiled swivel.
After all, it doesn't matter that atheists aren't even allowed to say ... put up a billboard, a sign on a bus, or even a little cardboard sign in a front lawn without some Christian vandalizing it. One thing's for certain: Such signs always seem to make the local news for some reason -- usually because of the horrible outrage expressed by Christians in the area that atheists would even dare alert the population that, yes, there is another choice out there that doesn't require one to worship a god.
More to the point however, I won't sit here and lie to you. Yes, I will be very happy when religious fundamentalism is erased from society. That includes fundamentalism attached to ALL religions as we can plainly see what Islamic fundamentalism is bringing us.
Fundamentalism is essentially a message of hate and violence, a message of oppression, tyranny, misogyny, and fear. The fact that we are STILL talking about same-sex marriage and the anger it STILL evokes in the fundamentalist heart speaks volumes of precisely what I'm talking about.
Plus, it goes without saying -- especially since fundamentalists would rather it DID go without me saying it -- that they really don't want atheists saying anything at all. Censorship and the suppression of opposing ideas even here on this forum which has been set up to discuss and debate religious commonalities and differences -- that's the name of their game. Atheists will be told all the time, in one form or another, that this is a religion and spirituality forum so why are we even here? Instead, we should be confined to one of George W. Bush's "Free Speech Zones" far away from where anyone but other atheists would see what we write.
Religion CAN have a positive effect on an individual. However, I've heard more than my fair share of atheists say that their lives have been vastly improved by discarding their religious beliefs, too. Perhaps if people did studies of atheists and asked how many of them regretted leaving their faith, you'd find that they are just as happy with no regrets.
The problem with studies like these is that it's not enough to simply state that religious people are happy because you have to conduct the exact same study with the non-religious and compare the results. Otherwise you have absolutely bupkiss in terms of factual evidence that can be used to shove in the faces of atheists and claim, "See? See? We're happier people!"
In terms of having a positive effect on society, I don't think so ... because it's difficult to define the word "positive." Ask any Nazi in 1938 if they thought Nazism was a positive ideology for Germany and they would have given you a dreamy-eyed look and given you a resounding, "Yes!" They thought their lives were awesome, their society brilliant, their nation the greatest on earth. Did Nazism have a "positive" effect on Germany? You betchya. But was it really positive? Well ... what do YOU think?
No, don't get hung up on some idiotic feigned offense that I compared religion to Nazism because that's not my intent. I'm trying to explain that defining what is positive isn't as cut and dry as you want to make it. Just like the leaders of ISIS no doubt think they are bringing positive change to the world ... or they wouldn't be doing what they're doing.
Which means I don't necessarily buy into the idea that religion brings a positive effect for society. There is absolutely no good deed religion does for society that requires religion. Even the charitable acts that take place occur because good people make them happen, not because of religion. The only beneficial aspect of religion is its organizational characteristics that allow people to band together to make charity drives occur, but if people put their minds to it, that could happen without religion -- and the ability to organize has absolutely NOTHING to do with talking snakes, resurrections, transcendent gods, heaven and hell, ancient holy books, and Bronze Age superstitions. It has to do with good people with good hearts who see the deficiencies in our society and wish to do something about it. No religion needed.
Nor should it be. Allowing society as a whole to vote on the civil rights of a minority group is a perversion of the democratic process -- it's called "the Tyranny of the Majority" or, as it is often compared to: It's like two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
The average voter hasn't so much as glanced at the US Constitution since 6th grade and has absolutely no business voting on whether or not gays have the Constitutional right to marry.
Plus, the only reason why you're complaining about this is because you lost. If the Supreme Court had ruled against same sex marriage, you'd be kissing the Supreme Court's collective butt and defending their decision -- never mind whether or not a "large majority" had had the chance to vote on it.
Our government only works if people like you accept decisions that rule against your wishes. You can't get your way all the time. Just like we didn't get our way when the courts ruled against OUR wishes over the whole Hobby Lobby issue. You win some, you lose some. But if your side is just going to sit around seething in anger and inventing unethical ways to reverse every ruling you don't like so that you get your way all the time (i.e. refusing to allow Obama to appoint the next Supreme Court Justice), then what we really have isn't a democracy at all but a theocratic oligarchy with a fascistic ideology. Nice, huh?
Right, because the Gay Marriage Police stormed your house, hauled away your wife, and forced you to marry a dude at gunpoint, even threatening to torture you unless you said the words "I do" while invoking the name of God. Then as your former wife watched, the Gay Marriage Police forced you to consummate your new gay marriage right there on the living room floor ... with plenty of butt sex.
That's what happened, I presume, because how else could the Supreme Court "force it on everyone."
Who cares about polls? The civil rights of a minority group aren't a popularity contest. It doesn't matter if you find gay love "icky" or "oogy" or if it sends shivers of disgust up and down your spine. Nor does it matter what your Bible says about it, what your religion says about it, or what your God says about it. And it matters even LESS what your God told the Hebrews about it -- because last I checked, Jews only make up roughly 2.1% of the U.S. population (which means all of the crap in the Old Testament means diddly squat unless you're a Jew ... and THAT means no Leviticus, no Deuteronomy, no "Gays are an abomination" or "Gays should be killed," blah blah blah ... because, pssst, I'll let you in on a little secret ....... we don't live in effing ISRAEL!!!)
LOL! Just because someone might be for marriage equality doesn't mean they necessarily believe same-sex marriage is "good" or "moral." It just means THOSE particular Christians have the good sense and political character to realize that they don't have the right to tell anyone else how to live their lives. They understand that, regardless of what they personally believe about what is right for their own lives, they cannot have freedom OF religion if they cannot also have freedom FROM religion. Otherwise, what would stop some other group from gaining political power and forcing Christians by law to engage in some un-Christian immoral practice?
That is why you actually CAN have people who are personally against gay marriage yet still be for the idea of marriage equality. Because ... and grab a chair and sit down just in case this kind of news is a bit shocking for you ... because not all Christians are binary thinkers. In fact, MOST are not binary thinkers which is why MOST are not fundamentalists and science deniers.
I wonder how much time and money a Republican president and a Republican controlled senate is going to waste trying to repeal the gay marriage decision while simultaneously trying to yank access to health care out from beneath the feet of tens of millions of Americans. Oh yeah ... that's in between enacting policies of bigotry like banning Muslims entry into the country and spending tens of billions of dollars on a stupid wall to keep out immigrants while Americans at home are suffering due to lack of jobs, lack of health care, lack of functioning infrastructure, lack of government services, and lack of a social safety net. Christian Americans will get to watch helplessly as our vaunted universities fill up with students from secular and atheistic nations because the Americans themselves can't afford higher education thanks to rampant tuition hikes.
It'll just showcase the American Christian mentality.
I call it the "Britney Spears Syndrome." If you ask around, no one seems to like Britney Spears yet somehow she was one of the most popular pop divas in the world. If no one likes her, how did she get to be such a huge star?
By the same token, if you ask most Christians, they'll claim they had nothing to do with what's going on in the country -- yet somehow the current circus of clowns managed to get themselves elected. Either they DID have something to do with it ... or they did nothing. And I suppose the latter is the real problem. Do nothing and the fundamentalists who are never lackadaisical about voting have all the say and all the power.
Some pretty traumatizing "visuals" in this post Shirina. Wow!
~~~SHUDDER~~~
Squeal Jeff! WEEEEEEE! WEEEEEEE!!
That's the problem with all placebos: they require ignorance to work. As soon as a person knows that the "powerful new medicine" they are taking is nothing more than a sugar pill, the placebo stops working.
If a person becomes psychologically dependent on a placebo, the truth (that it's just a sugar pill) literally becomes a health hazard.
I personally believe that placebo addiction is the root cause of the willful ignorance in fundamentalist Christianity.
I've heard that there are legitimate studies that show that even if the person knows it's a placebo it still helps significantly... like your body just wants you to at least do something (especially an action that simulates the stereotype of "taking medicine").
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