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Key word is "some". My point is if even a fraction of the people who railed against Christians on the gay issue put that same effort and outrage into the plight of Native Americans, we would probably see some real change.
But as always, you have to flip it back on me.
Kind of like the way you just tried to redirect a discussion about an untenable position to something that you think you may have a chance of arguing successfully?
Come on, Jeffy. If a fraction of the bitter, entitled souls who call themselves 'True Christians' put even a hint of effort into actually emulating Christ's behavior, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
With all this furor over same-sex marriage, I'm half-tempted to start a campaign against heterosexual marriage, just so you and your fellow 'True Christians' learn how a two-tiered system of rights really feels.
Kind of like the way you just tried to redirect a discussion about an untenable position to something that you think you may have a chance of arguing successfully?
Come on, Jeffy. If a fraction of the bitter, entitled souls who call themselves 'True Christians' put even a hint of effort into actually emulating Christ's behavior, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
With all this furor over same-sex marriage, I'm half-tempted to start a campaign against heterosexual marriage, just so you and your fellow 'True Christians' learn how a two-tiered system of rights really feels.
Ironically, there you go flipping back on me. Instead of taking account for your own lousy tactics, you claim that I do the same thing.
Christ supported traditional marriage. And given the example of Him chasing out the money changers from the temple with a whip, I doubt He would have stayed quiet on the issue to keep from offending anyone.
Ironically, there you go flipping back on me. Instead of taking account for your own lousy tactics, you claim that I do the same thing.
Christ supported traditional marriage. And given the example of Him chasing out the money changers from the temple with a whip, I doubt He would have stayed quiet on the issue to keep from offending anyone.
Christ supported fairness, honesty, love and forgiveness -- not blind, arrogant self-entitlement at the expense of others' personal liberties.
Jesus cleansed the temple because the money-lenders were, in Christ's eyes, 'turning it into a den of thieves' (Matthew 21:12–13). Hardly a valid comparison (and slightly hypocritical, considering the number of mega-churches that can purchase twenty-million-dollar aircraft solely by begging donations from their flock).
The fact of the matter is, Jeffy -- and I've said this many times -- the rights that allow you and yours to protest and disagree are well-established and protected under the Constitution. I'm not going to begrudge anyone the right to speak their mind (within the limits of applicable law), because once we start down that road, everyone loses.
What I will protest and fight against -- vigorously -- is any law that is intended to deny or forbid another their own rights under that same Constitution (or, here in Canada, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms).
Unfortunately, certain sections of society have taken it upon themselves to dictate what rights everyone else should and shouldn't have in a free society. And I don't accept that, not for one second.
Equal rights does not mean 'except for people that I dislike'.
Christ supported fairness, honesty, love and forgiveness -- not blind, arrogant self-entitlement at the expense of others' personal liberties.
Jesus cleansed the temple because the money-lenders were, in Christ's eyes, 'turning it into a den of thieves' (Matthew 21:12–13). Hardly a valid comparison (and slightly hypocritical, considering the number of mega-churches that can purchase twenty-million-dollar aircraft solely by begging donations from their flock).
Christ never supported sin. He spoke quite harshly against it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredNotBob
The fact of the matter is, Jeffy -- and I've said this many times -- the rights that allow you and yours to protest and disagree are well-established and protected under the Constitution. I'm not going to begrudge anyone the right to speak their mind (within the limits of applicable law), because once we start down that road, everyone loses.
What I will protest and fight against -- vigorously -- is any law that is intended to deny or forbid another their own rights under that same Constitution (or, here in Canada, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms).
Unfortunately, certain sections of society have taken it upon themselves to dictate what rights everyone else should and shouldn't have in a free society. And I don't accept that, not for one second.
Equal rights does not mean 'except for people that I dislike'.
So then I suppose you support equal rights for those who practice incest, pologamy, or had the misfortune of being born with a sexual orientation to desire animals or minors, right? Or does it just suck to be them?
Christ never supported sin. He spoke quite harshly against it.
So then I suppose you support equal rights for those who practice incest, pologamy, or had the misfortune of being born with a sexual orientation to desire animals or minors, right? Or does it just suck to be them?
There ya go equating homosexuality to bestiality and incest again... You do realize how ignorant this argument is right? There isn't much you can do to stop incest, if the people are both consenting adults. If one is underage, then that is breaking the law and would be considered rape. Being gay is not against the law, regardless of how much YOU wish it were. Polygamy, while I personally find it rather stupid and distasteful, is not a big deal if it is between consenting adults, and they do so without breaking any laws. Animals are not consenting adults, so that argument is just plain stupid.
In other words, Jeff, you need to stop using arguments like this, as it only goes to show how little intellect and honesty you really have.
So then I suppose you support equal rights for those who practice incest, pologamy, or had the misfortune of being born with a sexual orientation to desire animals or minors, right? Or does it just suck to be them?
As always, and has been explained many times in the face of your constantly asserted false equivalencies, when societal consensus is that a practice such as polygamy or incest is a harm, and/or when it does not involve mutual informed consent (sex with animals or minors) then we do not support it because of the net harms. So yes, it is just too bad for a pederast or polygamists and such like.
Half a dozen houses down the street from me lives a gay man in his own house which he bought and paid for. I think he should have the right to do whatever he wants, sexually, within the law, which means with a mutually consenting adult, and if he wants to be married to that person he has no less right than I do to be married. It is no more valid to try to equate that with molesting children or marrying his sister or taking on multiple marriage partners than it would be to try to equate your marriage with those things.
Inevitably of course my opposition to things like polygamy / polyamory is likely more nuanced than yours. You probably oppose it because ... well, I don't know really, because quite a few of your heroes of the faith were polygamists, which makes it particularly disingenuous to assert that the Bible says that marriage is "between A man and A woman". But I oppose it because it doesn't work, for basic psychological and sociological reasons, plus I regard the failed Mormon experiments in that regard sufficient evidence that it's not good for our society generally or women and young men particularly. And our whole society is set up for monogamy in ways that would make it impractical to change even if polygamy WERE a good idea.
So then I suppose you support equal rights for those who practice incest, pologamy, or had the misfortune of being born with a sexual orientation to desire animals or minors, right? Or does it just suck to be them?
Still pretending you do not understand the concept of "informed consent" so that you can pretend you have an argument to make where in fact you do not, huh? Nothing new there then I guess.
Christ never supported sin. He spoke quite harshly against it.
So then I suppose you support equal rights for those who practice incest, pologamy, or had the misfortune of being born with a sexual orientation to desire animals or minors, right? Or does it just suck to be them?
Rights also come with the protection against doing harm to others or do you forget that part all the time. Neither children nor animals have the ability to provide informed consent so that cannot agree to sex anymore than they can own a gun (your constitution rights) own property or vote. And sex with animals is legal in Texas and was it not one state this past month that allowed sex with animals under 40 pounds. How many times do you have to have explained to you about consent? Even in Texa nine year olds cannot go and buy a gun and take to school with them.
I assume you support that marriage should be part of the church therefore those who are non Christians cannot get married and also for it to be illegal to have sex outside of marriage therefore non Christians could not legally have children? I can go as extreme one side as you can on the other side and make as little sense as you do. Pologamy is a traditional marriage in many cultures including those of your Bible, mormons, some native groups,etc and most of those were within the boundaries of their religion. Not everything that has been in religion including your religion is legal today. The laws are secular and are set up to protect those who cannot protect themselves such as children, animals and those who have little control of their lives.
Where is the great tolerance of others that you claim relgion provides, no one is even asking you to include gays in your church but why is a tolereant group going to govern what others can do based soley on their religious view? Why do you want to mistreat your fellow Christians who just happen to be gay? Or your fellow Christians who just happen to not follow the literal Bible but follow a allegorical Bible? Or your non Christian citizens in a secular nation? So little tolerance. Your being mistreated simply means you cannaot force your worldview upon others.
There ya go equating homosexuality to bestiality and incest again... You do realize how ignorant this argument is right? There isn't much you can do to stop incest, if the people are both consenting adults. If one is underage, then that is breaking the law and would be considered rape. Being gay is not against the law, regardless of how much YOU wish it were. Polygamy, while I personally find it rather stupid and distasteful, is not a big deal if it is between consenting adults, and they do so without breaking any laws. Animals are not consenting adults, so that argument is just plain stupid.
The only thing I'm equating is the notion of sexual orientation being a trait that we are born with and therefore deserving of equal rights. The only thing you are doing here is trying to justify why you don't approve of certain orientations. You want me to believe that it is immoral to discriminate based on sexual orientations. Oh wait, you mean ONLY those orientations that you approve of.
Being gay was at one time against the law. (and not something I would have supported, btw) I seriously doubt you would be making the same argument back then.
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