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The OP, which would be me, is saying not that those of religious proclivities CAN'T use their analytical mind, it is that the vast majority won't use it, and the study says exactly that is the indication.
However, seeing that it appears you were unable to understand what was clearly spelled out just reinforces what the study found. Thanks!
I think it needs to be qualified, though, that the study isn't claiming that believers don't use their minds at all; just that they do not use critical thinking skills to evaluate their ideas about god, religion, theology, and the supernatural, and indeed whether or not these things should be treated dualistically, as sacred vs profane. The core problem with religious ideation is special pleading. You will not buy the Brooklyn Bridge from me in 3 easy payments, but you will buy an invisible man in the sky without a second thought.
So it is not just that religious people have perfectly functional reasoning processes that they are not using; they are just not using them in a particular narrow area of life where special rules are supposed to apply.
I have faith in many things that cannot be proven. Does that make me some kind of idiot? I have faith that when I step on my brakes my car will stop. I have no proof that it will. I have this faith because I have experienced my brakes stopping my car many times.
I would not count this as a faith claim. Faith is belief without evidence. You have evidence from your past that every time you step on your breaks that it slows and stops the car. This is not faith...this is an evidence conditioned experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow
It's the same thing with my faith in God.
No it's not the same at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow
I have experienced God in so many ways and so many times that I have an unshakable belief that He exists and that He knows me and cares about me.
First when you say god please define which god and what its defining qualities are.
How do you know what you experience is just simply how the Universe works? Mind over Matter is real and it's apparently just how the Universe works in our neck of the woods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow
The believer knows absolutely that there is a spiritual dimension that is pretty much invisible and undetectable to the atheist.
This is a very limiting and narrowly constrained belief. You don't have to be a believer in anything to understand there are other dimensions in the Universe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow
Still the atheist has faith in thousands of things in the secular realm that are not based on anything other than belief.
And what I have objected to in this format, is the attempt I see you making to shut people down when they discuss the reasons they don't believe, the reasons they don't agree with your reasons, etc. And the simple reality is that we are all here voluntarily for the express purpose of having those discussions. If you can't handle those discussions, then you probably shouldn't be here.
I have faith in many things that cannot be proven. Does that make me some kind of idiot? I have faith that when I step on my brakes my car will stop. I have no proof that it will. I have this faith because I have experienced my brakes stopping my car many times.
There are multiple senses of the word faith and you are conflating the two main ones. We are not discussing justified expectation based on experience, we are talking about faith in the theological sense of believing assertions without a requirement of evidence or logical argument to justify that belief.
Therefore ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow
It's the same thing with my faith in God.
No, it's not at all the same thing with god. Your brakes on your car are not invisible, intangible, and you do not claim to have a personal relationship with them. We can measure the effect of braking (or not braking!) but when it comes to your deity of choice, outcomes of prayer are indistinguishable from random happenstance and any belief you have that it's not, can be readily explained by confirmation bias.
Case in point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow
I have experienced God in so many ways and so many times that I have an unshakable belief that He exists and that He knows me and cares about me.
So you have had personal subjective experiences that fit your hopes and dreams of how the universe should work, you are deeply invested in it, and have, through ritual and other forms of operant conditioning, probably from childhood, confirmed and reconfirmed the dogma of your faith of origin.
I don't deny that it seems real to you, nor do I begrudge you enjoying how that feels. But I do deny that it is ACTUALLY real and therefore I do not subscribe to it for myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow
To the unbeliever the fact that there is more in and to existence than this physical world is understandably difficult to believe. The believer knows absolutely that there is a spiritual dimension that is pretty much invisible and undetectable to the atheist. Still the atheist has faith in thousands of things in the secular realm that are not based on anything other than belief.
I strive not to believe in anything that is not empirically justifiable in some way. I trust things that are trustWORTHY, but that, as I pointed out above, is not the same as religious faith-claims. Not even close. We just happen to use the same word for it in English.
If there is "something more than this physical world" then as a physical being with physical senses it is not accessible to me. Were the supernatural (outside of nature) to assert itself in a way that anyone can perceive, it would then become PART of nature and would no longer be supernatural and we would not be having these silly conversations about how the uninitiated can't perceive the "spiritual dimension". The fact is that NO ONE can perceive the supernatural, they can only assert random things about it and choose to ignore evidence that points away from it.
You are also forgetting one huge thing about unbelievers. Many -- in fact most -- were once believers. So it is not a question of lacking special perceptual equipment. It is simply a matter of growing weary of pretending to have that special equipment, and making excuses for why the real world doesn't work the way it's supposed to in your dogma of choice.
There are multiple senses of the word faith and you are conflating the two main ones. We are not discussing justified expectation based on experience, we are talking about faith in the theological sense of believing assertions without a requirement of evidence or logical argument to justify that belief.
Therefore ...
No, it's not at all the same thing with god. Your brakes on your car are not invisible, intangible, and you do not claim to have a personal relationship with them. We can measure the effect of braking (or not braking!) but when it comes to your deity of choice, outcomes of prayer are indistinguishable from random happenstance and any belief you have that it's not, can be readily explained by confirmation bias.
Case in point:
So you have had personal subjective experiences that fit your hopes and dreams of how the universe should work, you are deeply invested in it, and have, through ritual and other forms of operant conditioning, probably from childhood, confirmed and reconfirmed the dogma of your faith of origin.
I don't deny that it seems real to you, nor do I begrudge you enjoying how that feels. But I do deny that it is ACTUALLY real and therefore I do not subscribe to it for myself.
I strive not to believe in anything that is not empirically justifiable in some way. I trust things that are trustWORTHY, but that, as I pointed out above, is not the same as religious faith-claims. Not even close. We just happen to use the same word for it in English.
If there is "something more than this physical world" then as a physical being with physical senses it is not accessible to me. Were the supernatural (outside of nature) to assert itself in a way that anyone can perceive, it would then become PART of nature and would no longer be supernatural and we would not be having these silly conversations about how the uninitiated can't perceive the "spiritual dimension". The fact is that NO ONE can perceive the supernatural, they can only assert random things about it and choose to ignore evidence that points away from it.
You are also forgetting one huge thing about unbelievers. Many -- in fact most -- were once believers. So it is not a question of lacking special perceptual equipment. It is simply a matter of growing weary of pretending to have that special equipment, and making excuses for why the real world doesn't work the way it's supposed to in your dogma of choice.
Great follow up on his post mordant. I think his analogy of the brakes and faith was incorrect also. I almost want to make a poster of your wording on this post and it's key points. Of course I won't because they are your thoughts.
The fact is that NO ONE can perceive the supernatural, they can only assert random things about it and choose to ignore evidence that points away from it.
...So it is not a question of lacking special perceptual equipment. It is simply a matter of growing weary of pretending to have that special equipment, and making excuses for why the real world doesn't work the way it's supposed to in your dogma of choice.
correction:
the fact is all you can accurately state is that in your experience you do not perceive that which is beyond the physical.
however the fact is that many folks do on a regular routine part of daily life perceive that which is beyond the physical
just what we were talking about! you have your experience.
other people have a different experience. all you can accurately speak to is your own experience.
to insist that others can not have an experience different than yours...is not accurate or correct.
we all have the equipment to perceive beyond the physical
some use it, some don't use it, some devalue it, some deny it exists, some ignore it, some shut it down
free will, free choice
As it clearly taught in the bible, "The things of God are NONSENSE to the natural man".
Also this one explains a lot of things to me about the rage and opposition there is to Christianity, "The gospel is an OFFENCE to the natural man".
The "Natural man" is the man that is in the normal condition that all people are born with. This man can not understand anything at all spiritually. It takes an act upon this natural man by God that changes the person into a "born again" man with a different and supernatural nature before he can understand anything at all spiritual. That is why it is futile and unprofitable to discuss anything spiritual to the unbeliever except the basic Gospel.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow
I have faith in many things that cannot be proven. Does that make me some kind of idiot? I have faith that when I step on my brakes my car will stop. I have no proof that it will. I have this faith because I have experienced my brakes stopping my car many times. It's the same thing with my faith in God. I have experienced God in so many ways and so many times that I have an unshakable belief that He exists and that He knows me and cares about me. To the unbeliever the fact that there is more in and to existence than this physical world is understandably difficult to believe. The believer knows absolutely that there is a spiritual dimension that is pretty much invisible and undetectable to the atheist. Still the atheist has faith in thousands of things in the secular realm that are not based on anything other than belief.
I don't think you understand the concept of faith, versus understanding repetitive results based on real, repeatable experiments or actions.
We know why brakes work. If your break pads are good, and no hydraulic leaks, they will work every time, and we can test why. Every time. No faith needed, as the science can explain it.
Faith in the unseen and unheard is based on feelings, not experiments. Any feelings are base on your own perceptions, as even others of faith will never have the same perceptions.
Atheist are skeptics by definition. Show us why something exists, works or why we can have a repeatable, expected outcome, we will gladly endorse that.
BTW, we don't "believe" in science, we understand it. No airy, fairy belief needed, ever.
If there is "something more than this physical world" then as a physical being with physical senses it is not accessible to me. Were the supernatural (outside of nature) to assert itself in a way that anyone can perceive, it would then become PART of nature and would no longer be supernatural and we would not be having these silly conversations about how the uninitiated can't perceive the "spiritual dimension". The fact is that NO ONE can perceive the supernatural, they can only assert random things about it and choose to ignore evidence that points away from it.
this is exciting. that's what I like about your posts mordant. because you make correlations and connections that are expansive and insightful. I can see the sparks flying, the synapses firing. I mean that. You are absolutely spot on: there is nature and there is "beyond" nature. We perceive nature with one set of equipment that gathers and reports data. We perceive "beyond nature" with another set of equipment that gathers and reports data to us.
That is entirely correct, concise, elegant, and well put. Thank you. Using both sets of equipment gives us the most data with which to navigate reality and our daily life.
There is nothing magical or miraculous about it, it is simply accessing a different set of data. That which is beyond nature is not bound by the laws of nature. Hence what some call "miracles."
NOT so. The fact that this study is done by non-believers would lead me to understand that there might be some arrogant atheistic bias here. Physics is an on going and evolving science. We are now discovering things like black matter...something that exists and yet at the same time does not exist. You can not state that those of faith lack the ability to be analytical - I have faith and I question everything....I and my dear woman are very empathic and very questioning of everything.
We are not fools....through imagination and deduction we can pretty much figure out anything BUT we know that there is a 15% chance we can be wrong....because NO ONE has 100% of the information to come to the perfect answer. Science does not have all the information....nor do believers or atheists....at least those intelligent ones with faith leave the door open to continued learning.
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