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Yeah, I used to think this, but the world is not a friendly place for idealists.
This has nothing to do with idealism. It has to do with basic human decency, which as uncomfortable as it may be, includes decency afforded those who are indecent in your estimation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
By your logic, gay people should not have conducted in-your-face provocative protests, nor should blacks have done so.
A comment that shows either that you really have no idea what my "logic" is, or you are working really hard to prevaricate to deflect attention away from my "logic". How about this? Let me tell you what my logic is instead of mordantsplaining me.
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. advocated peaceful protest, not doing to the people in power what the people in power did to African Americas. I'm mortified that you aren't able to see the difference or, equally bad, are making it seem like you aren't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1insider
Wasn't Galileo tried for heresy? The Church has a long history of opposing science that is in conflict with their interpretation of Scripture.
Precisely. Galileo is practicing science, and here comes some religious types telling him what his scientific research is allowed to conclude.
actually it has happened. it does happen. off hand i know of several examples.
note carefully your inner responses, inner reaction to this information
Yes but here again you have simply asserted it. My challenge was to present an instance and substantiate it. You chose not to do so. Note carefully your actual response and reaction to the challenge.
As for me ... I would be greatly interested in a case where actual theism, using theology, has corrected actual science. Doesn't bother me at all. As an atheist I will change my beliefs based on new information that meets my evidentiary standards.
Wasn't Galileo tried for heresy? The Church has a long history of opposing science that is in conflict with their interpretation of Scripture.
Absolutely...back in the day the church punished any scientist that presented facts that did not align with the churches views...and of course the churches views were ALWAYS wrong. Thankfully scientists today don't have to suffer at the hands of the corrupt ignorant church.
Absolutely...back in the day the church punished any scientist that presented facts that did not align with the churches views.
It is sad that people don't learn history anymore. It's only been the last 350 years that such offenses by theologians against science have seen significant decline.
A comment that shows either that you really have no idea what my "logic" is, or you are working really hard to prevaricate to deflect attention away from my "logic". How about this? Let me tell you what my logic is instead of mordantsplaining me.
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. advocated peaceful protest, not doing to the people in power what the people in power did to African Americas. I'm mortified that you aren't able to see the difference or, equally bad, are making it seem like you aren't.
A non-response which says exactly nothing other than managing to get in one of those insulting digs you claim to be against.
Do you suggest that atheists are non-peacefully protesting? Seen any riots in the streets incited by atheists lately?
The point is that those in power can easily PERCEIVE that protesters are doing Nasty Things to them but that doesn't mean it's nasty. Those in power saw MLK's protests as an existential threat, and reacted accordingly, jailing protesters, lynching protesters, vilifying and demonizing them in every possible way. Not because the protesters were violent, but because they brought the immorality and injustice of entrenched power to the light of day, and deprived the powerful of their cloak of false authority and righteousness.
That is exactly what atheists do when they decry theistic fascism. And then you turn around and in effect call it atheistic fascism ... which is what the entrenched power structures always do.
Which I can only read as a deflection intended to rationalize not responding to my points with the respect you expect from others for your points. Since you go on from there to mordantsplain even more to me, making up more things I didn't say just so you have something to argue against, I guess you're communicating to me that we're done respecting each other in this thread, so how about we just agree to disagree and leave it at that?
actually it has happened. it does happen. off hand i know of several examples.
note carefully your inner responses, inner reaction to this information
There actually is no information in your post. It is an assertion that information exists without actually providing any.
I think this really goes back to my earlier question....do you care if your beliefs are actually true, or do you prefer beliefs which align with your preferences?
Because when one person in a conversation of opposing views doesn't care whether their view is actual reality, or simply their preferences for their own reality, the conversation really can't go anywhere...because quite literally the conversation of opposing views on anything requires at least some base level of agreement as a measuring stick.
If we're conversing about the reasons for the color blue being an invigorating color vs a depressing color, and you point to an orange as an example of blue....the conversation really has no grounding in reality that we both observe.
Absolutely...back in the day the church punished any scientist that presented facts that did not align with the churches views...and of course the churches views were ALWAYS wrong. Thankfully scientists today don't have to suffer at the hands of the corrupt ignorant church.
Another good example would be Intelligent Design, where an "alternative" to actual science is put forward, claimed to have equal scientific legitimacy, when in reality the legitimacy of its significant differences from the science are things that have only theological foundation.
We can also include the cases where Christian Science trumps science in the provision of medical care to a minor.
And both of those are current and ongoing. Expanding back to the realm of "in human history" that mordant originally specified, and the examples could go on and on and on.
The quote on the church sign is attributed to Martin Luther. In my former denomination, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, "human reason" was specifically denigrated. Luther supposedly called reason "the Devil's w**re."
That kind of thinking produces mind-numbed robots who can only quote Bible passages. In their minds, the only reliable source of knowledge in the universe is from "God's Word."
Hmmm...And G-d said to come and reason with Him....
a University science professor had been giving the same "extra credit" problem on the final exam for his science students for 29 years and no one had ever solved it, in a program the caliber of Cal Tech. The professor included it because it was something he himself had been unable to solve in his own area of expertise. One year, he was astonished to see the problem solved by one of his students. He suspected the student of cheating, of course, because the student was not that outstanding in his academics (as "not outstanding" as someone could be and still be in a program the caliber of Cal Tech), so the professor could easily spot that someone had answered the problem for him.
So he confronted the student, and wanted to know who had provided the answer. The professor started asking was it Dr. X? Professor Y? Dr. Z? naming all the world-class scientists in his field that he suspected of assisting the student. The university student of course kept saying "not him, no, not him" to each name. At this point the professor offered the student a deal: he would not move forward with disciplinary action for cheating, if the student gave him the name of who answered the problem on the exam. Since the student had passed the regular part of the exam on his own merit, and had only cheated on the extra credit portion of the exam, the professor had leeway on whether to pass him for the course or not.
The student agreed to the terms of the deal, and gave him the name. The professor looked baffled and puzzled and said "who the heck is that? where does he work? what government project is he working on that his identity is kept secret? what lab employs him? what is his specialty? does he publish his journal articles under a different name to preserve his anonymity? why have I not heard of him?" and on and on, and when the student just kept shaking his head no, no, no, none of the above, to all those questions, finally the professor said, "I must meet him. You must take me to meet him."
the student said "it's my uncle" and was mortified because (a) he had been caught cheating and (b) his uncle was an old guy dressed in black who sat around all day studying Torah. His uncle had been at the house when the university student had been sweating bullets on the very difficult take-home exam. He had completed the whole exam but could not fathom the extra credit problem. He handed the paper to his uncle, who set down the volume he was studying, studied the paper briefly, thought for a bit, spent several minutes writing on the paper, and handed the paper back to his nephew. Then he picked up the volume of Gemarra again and continued studying Torah.
(the student's cousin shared the story with me, she has the same uncle, an Orthodox religious family for many generations)
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