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I was wondering if you are religious and think your holy book is inspired by God, who do you think wrote the other holy books.
Men did. It's obvious when you compare any of the other scriptures to the Bible. If you've ever sat down and done a comparison of the 2 - really reading into the Bible, and them, I just don't see them as anything close.
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I can't answer that one even though I was once involved with a Christian sect because I never thought about it. For example, if you are Christian do you think a human wrote the Quran or the Buddhist holy book or do you think it was something more sinister? Do you think these holy books were planted by Satan to mislead?
Honestly...have you ever sat down and read the Koran? Have you ever looked at how it's organized, how it was written? The Bible is 66 different books, different authors, different timetables...yet God's redemption of man by Jesus is the focus in the whole thing.
From the Islamic faith, there is only one God. In Arabic, the word used for God is Allah, and hence Muslims believe that Muslims, Christian and Jews follow the same God. Whether Christians and Jews believe the same, is their own opinion, which they are entitled to, and Muslims have no issue with it.
Yet, in Christianity, we recognize that Jesus is God. Islam does not teach that. They deny that. That is a major difference.
Men did. It's obvious when you compare any of the other scriptures to the Bible. If you've ever sat down and done a comparison of the 2 - really reading into the Bible, and them, I just don't see them as anything close.
With nearly every post, you exhibit what you do not see.
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Honestly...have you ever sat down and read the Koran? Have you ever looked at how it's organized, how it was written? The Bible is 66 different books, different authors, different timetables...yet God's redemption of man by Jesus is the focus in the whole thing.
The Koran is the ramblings of 1 man.
And you obviously prefer the umpteen hundred/thousand scribes/copyists/editors/translators of the 66 ramblings of various unknown, long-dead, anonymous men whom Constantine decided were channeling god in order to please his mother.
With nearly every post, you exhibit what you do not see.
And you obviously prefer the umpteen hundred/thousand scribes/copyists/editors/translators of the 66 ramblings of various unknown, long-dead, anonymous men whom Constantine decided were channeling god in order to please his mother.
Yay you.
For some people....religion is all about them.
The beliefs of other people don't mean diddly squat because, by gosh, they've decided they're right, the other guy is wrong....and the other guy needs to convert!
Last edited by DewDropInn; 04-03-2016 at 07:20 PM..
Men did. It's obvious when you compare any of the other scriptures to the Bible. If you've ever sat down and done a comparison of the 2 - really reading into the Bible, and them, I just don't see them as anything close.
All three, the The Torah, the Gospel and the Koran are all basically the same book merely written in different tongues, or rather languages.
And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
Luke 9:33
There is nothing said or done in the NT that was already written of in the OT. And the Koran is basically the same account as given in the OT. So Moses was raised by Pharaoh and learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians yet how did he write the Torah using the written spoken word since the Egyptians only form of writing was hieroglyphics which do not use the written spoken word but rather drawings using images and symbols.
You can give a kid a piece of paper and a crayon and without any instruction they can pick up the crayon and start drawing yet there has never been a recorded case where a person taught themselves how to read and write the written spoken word without having assistance. How do you learn to read unless you have a book to read from? And how do you have a book unless you have words to write down.
So from my understanding of the Koran, you will find that Muhammad did not know how to read or write when the angel of God gave the Koran to him. Just as Moses himself could not have written the Torah in Hebrew just as Muhammad couldn't have written the Koran in Arabic because unless one is taught how to read and write the written spoken word they can not learn on their own without assistance. Hence, Isaiah 29:11-12
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
So likewise, Moses was given the writings containing the 10 Commandments, the Law and the Testimony and not from from the eternal God but rather from an angel just like Muhammad received the Koran. In such, one can not actually claim Muhammad or Moses are Prophets of the only one true and eternal God since both received their messages not from God but rather from the angel of God.
See Exodus 3:2: wherein it is written regarding Moses, "And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed." As written, it was not God that appeared unto Moses but the angel.
Also see Acts 7:35
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
And thus in Deut 9:10, it is written; "And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
Now in the NT, it is written regarding the angel of God that appeared unto Moses and Muhammad in Rev 13:8, "...written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." And thus in John 3:16, the lamb is revealed "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Honestly...have you ever sat down and read the Koran? Have you ever looked at how it's organized, how it was written? The Bible is 66 different books, different authors, different timetables...yet God's redemption of man by Jesus is the focus in the whole thing.
Actually the first time I attempted to start reading the Koran a voice told me not to read it, it is amazing how many that didn't teach themselves how to read and write never can connect Isaiah 29:12 to Isaiah 29:11 to John 14:26
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Originally Posted by Vizio
The Koran is the ramblings of 1 man.
Not sure I would use the term 'ramblings' but yes it was written by the Man. and thus in John 8:28
"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself;..."
There is some understandable concern that parts of Islam have not exactly embraced Christianity and Judaism as alternate paths to spiritual truth or enlightenment -- your relatively liberal sentiments notwithstanding.
I wonder what Muslims think of atheists and their right to exist and participate equally in society?
That's an interesting question. And I will try to explain what I know. And it could be true, partially true or outright untrue; however, that's only my opinion. There could also be some fine tuned details, some of which I can elaborate to what I know. And there are definitely some that I may not know)
What Muslims think of Atheists could vary from Muslim to Muslim. In my opinion, many may have been mislead in forming their opinion on Atheists - and they jump in issueing a verdict that an Atheist is going to go to hell. But in reality, they don't even know their own fate.
In the Islamic philosophy, God is the creator of All (whether Muslim, non-Muslim Atheist, Agnostic etc ).
God has given a specific time, resources, and intelligence to all. Then God has sent his message of monotheism through his messengers. In Islamic faith, we believe that ALL prophets of all times, have one same message towards all humans - "Monotheism! Worship only one true God."
It's now up to the human being whether he wishes to use those resources and his own intelligence to try to live a balanced life in faith or not - before his time is up and the last curtain falls on his eyes.
If God was the enemy of Atheists then perhaps all Atheist would born blind or with AIDS or with skin cancer or with no arms or no legs etc. Or perhaps Atheists would never have had any off springs at all. But the laws of nature, laws of physics and laws of probability don't change, regardless of what your belief is.
Islam gives a free choice to all by clearly stating in Quran, "There is no compulsion in the matters of religion." Quran 2:256.
Which means a true follower of Islamic faith is STRICTLY forbidden to enforce his religion onto others (whether onto Muslims or non-Muslims).
Everyone has a right to live a peaceful life - whether Gay, Lesbian, Hindu, Muslim, non-Muslim etc. Islam has no place for someone who claims to be a Muslim but innocent people are hurt by his hands and/or by his tactics and his schemes.
Yes, a Muslim is allowed to explain his faith if an inquiry is made; however, a Muslim, for example, is not allowed to put a gun on the head of an Atheist to make him start believing in God.
So the question is; what's the position of an Atheist in the hereafter in Islamic doctrine?
In the Islamic faith, there is a judgement day where all adult humans that have walked on this earth will go through the judgement where one can't hire a cunning or smart lawyer in an effort to get away with whatever wrong deeds he had, and there will be no effort made against a person by a cunning lawyer to de-value and falsify his good deeds. 100% transparency will be served. This is guaranteed in Quran, chapter 99 versus 7 and 8.
On the judgement day, scales will be set!
Your good deeds wil be placed in the right arm of the scale and your bad deeds will be placed in the left arm of the scale.
If your good deeds outweigh your bad ones, then you qualify to be blessed, and hopefully you will make it to paradise by the mercy and will of God.
If your bad deeds outweigh your good deeds then you may be in trouble; however, God is merciful, and he loves to forgive.
The question is, what is the heaviest good deed in the scale that will help you in outweighing the bad deeds?
The answer of Islam is, "Faith in the existence of one true God".
The other heavy item of good deed is obviously the effort of how your actions have supported your faith in God.
And this is where it gets interesting.
What if you have "faith in God" but your bad deed scale outweighs your good deed scale? (Not enough supporting actions, and lots of bad deeds)
This is where a person is at the mercy of God. God can either forgive him or God can extend a punishment, at the end of which, he WILL enter into Paradise, eventually.
So faith in the existence of one true God guarantees the ultimate success; however, good deeds will make the journey smoother. And bad deeds could make it a rough ride. Islam; however, asks Muslims never to lose hope and keep trying within your means, as God is merciful.
(A side bar question is, what are the heaviest item in the bad deed arm of scale? In Islam, the number 1 worst of the worst bad deed is associating partners with God, number two is taking the life of an innocent person and number three is claiming to be a Muslim but in fact not being a believer in the heart - in Arabic it's called "Munafiq"'- a loose English translation would be "a hypocrite").
Now comes the Atheist.
His good and bad deeds are scaled. The good deed arm of the scale does not have the item of "faith in God" so it's quite likely that his bad deeds will outweigh his good deeds - in which case God can forgive him or God can punish him for good, or God can extend a temporary punishment; however there is no guarantee of an eventual ultimate success.
In short, the odds are extremely less likely that your good deeds will outweigh your bad deeds without having the item of "faith".
In other words, a true and non-hypocrite believer in one true God has a guarantee. An Atheist simply takes a lot of risk and puts a question mark against his chances of ultimate success.
At the end, I believe God is merciful and we should never lose hope.
Men did. It's obvious when you compare any of the other scriptures to the Bible. If you've ever sat down and done a comparison of the 2 - really reading into the Bible, and them, I just don't see them as anything close.
Honestly...have you ever sat down and read the Koran? Have you ever looked at how it's organized, how it was written? The Bible is 66 different books, different authors, different timetables...yet God's redemption of man by Jesus is the focus in the whole thing.
The Koran is the ramblings of 1 man.
...and you think that a book, edited in the 17th century from 16th century translations of 8000 contradictory copies of 4th century documents that claim to be copies of lost letters that were written in the 1st century is better?
I was wondering if you are religious and think your holy book is inspired by God, who do you think wrote the other holy books. I can't answer that one even though I was once involved with a Christian sect because I never thought about it. For example, if you are Christian do you think a human wrote the Quran or the Buddhist holy book or do you think it was something more sinister? Do you think these holy books were planted by Satan to mislead?
Two quotes from former LDS leaders:
“The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.” (Spencer W. Kimball)
“While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men, it is ONE of God’s instrumentalities for making known the truth; yet God is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. He raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend; not always giving a fulness of truth such as may be found in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ; but always giving that measure of truth that the people are prepared to receive. Mormonism holds, then, that all the great teachers are servants of God among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God’s children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them… Whenever God finds a soul sufficiently enlightened and pure; one with whom His Spirit can communicate, lo! He makes of him a teacher of men.” (B. H. Roberts)
My own point of view: God may very well have inspired the writing of various holy books outside of the ones I personally use. There is truth to be found in pretty much every religion, and it's only with the guidance of the Holy Ghost that one can sort out the truth from the error. Personally, I find the Baha'i scriptures to be absolutely beautiful.
That's an interesting question. And I will try to explain what I know.
Thanks for taking the time to write it up.
In theory at least it seems your beliefs are far more evenhanded than what Christian hellthreat-oriented belief has become. You must be the Muslim equivalent of a liberal Christian.
Personally if what you believe were true, I would be inclined to be quite confident in a god who is not easily threatened by unbelief, particularly when it is held for honest reasons (not seeing supporting evidence despite an honest search for truth) and I believe such a deity would not hold that against me. On the other hand I would be out of luck anyway with a deity who is jealous and threatened by honest unbelief. I can't make a pretense of belief, and any god worth the label would see right through that pretense anyway (as you seem to indicate when talking about false / hypocritical Muslims).
There is some understandable concern that parts of Islam have not exactly embraced Christianity and Judaism as alternate paths to spiritual truth or enlightenment -- your relatively liberal sentiments notwithstanding.
I wonder what Muslims think of atheists and their right to exist and participate equally in society?
My opinion, as a Muslim,of Atheists. In many ways they have many similarities to us.
In organization and structure we are virtually identical--there is no organized central structure
We have the exact same type of central leadership--None
We have the same number of ordained clergy--None
We have the same number of leaders that can speak for all of us--None
We tithe the same amount to promote our ideology--We do not tithe
As for my personal opinions about Atheists, I have no general opinion, I treat each person as an individual and base my opinions, if any, upon how they as an individual affect me. I have no concerns about another person's belief or disbelief unless they are using their belief/disbelief to get me to change mine.
If a Muslim were to leave Islam for any reason, belief or disbelief I believe they have locked them self out of heaven. Now for Atheist that have never been Muslim I view them as being on the first step toward Islam as they are not worshiping any false god. But again that is of no importance to me I only desire that all people make their choices of their own free will and based upon knowledge. I do not believe anyone should believe anything unless their own searching and investigations have given them reason to believe or not believe.
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