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...because if he is aware of the results of Hitler and allows Hitler to be born, knowing that Hitler's actions will result in the death and suffering of many millions, he cannot be described as benevolent.
So, your response is that yes, you think it is evil to give beings an opportunity to experience conscious life with the ability to choose freely how they will use that opportunity?
Are you being obtuse deliberately old thing? Why not just tell me which deity you follow and what it's attributes are. In that way it will save me asking you pointless questions about why 'god' doesn't do something. If the answer is that he can't because he is unable to because he is not omnipotent then I have the answer don't I. Stop turning it into a quiz!
So, your response is that yes, you think it is evil to give beings an opportunity to experience conscious life with the ability to choose freely how they will use that opportunity?
Okay. Thanks.
Not quite. I think it is evil to give someone an opportunity to experience conscious life whilst knowing that it will result in the death and suffering of millions.
Are you being obtuse deliberately old thing? Why not just tell me which deity you follow and what it's attributes are. In that way it will save me asking you pointless questions about why 'god' doesn't do something. If the answer is that he can't because he is unable to because he is not omnipotent then I have the answer don't I. Stop turning it into a quiz!
Because what I think, or do not think, has zero bearing on how someone answers the question I posed.
Because what I think, or do not think, has zero bearing on how someone answers the question I posed.
Yes it does. If the deity gives the beings an opportunity to experience conscious life with the ability to choose freely how they will use that opportunity yet cannot interfere with the choices made that is one thing. If it gives the beings an opportunity to experience conscious life with the ability to choose freely but will not interfere, no matter what suffering the beings cause then that is another. That is why the attributes of the deity are important.
Not quite. I think it is evil to give someone an opportunity to experience conscious life whilst knowing that it will result in the death and suffering of millions.
So a benevolent, god (who has certain knowledge of every act that will be committed) would have put certain parameters/limits on free will, if it was able to do so, or simply would not have allowed certain people to exist. Is there any amount of bad behavior that you think a benevolent god could allow and still be benevolent?
Also, what about the idea of "middle knowledge" ... the idea that god would know all the possible outcomes, without knowing which ones would actually come to fruition. Would you also consider that such a god could not be benevolent?
Yes it does. If the deity gives the beings an opportunity to experience conscious life with the ability to choose freely how they will use that opportunity yet cannot interfere with the choices made that is one thing. If it gives the beings an opportunity to experience conscious life with the ability to choose freely but will not interfere, no matter what suffering the beings cause then that is another. That is why the attributes of the deity are important.
Have to go out now.
Great, then answer based on both suppositions, if you will.
So, your response is that yes, you think it is evil to give beings an opportunity to experience conscious life with the ability to choose freely how they will use that opportunity?
Okay. Thanks.
I'm not really sure how Hitler killing millions of innocent people, sometimes only after allowing his henchmen to do awful things to them in "the name of science" or just for fun, to be "giv(ing) beings an opportunity to experience conscious life with the ability to choose freely how they will use that opportunity."
I'll bet Jews, Rom and Slavs all could have had PLENTY of opportunity to experience conscious life with the ability to choose freely, without living in abject terror, wondering where the children who had been ripped from them were (hint, Mom: about a 90% chance they were gassed immediately...stop hoping) before they were used up for their work, then murdered.
I may be crazy but hear me out here: where was the ability to choose freely how they would use the opportunity to be worked into the ground before being killed?
What, they could choose how quickly or slowly they'd undereat on any given day?
I'm finding your answers a bit bizarre, Pleroo, and frighteningly free of human empathy.
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So a benevolent, god (who has certain knowledge of every act that will be committed) would have put certain parameters/limits on free will, if it was able to do so
I'm not the person you asked, but my answer is: hell yes! We parents do this every single day WITHOUT our children turning into "robots" without "choice" or "free will". If pitiful imperfect human parents can do it, then paint me rather surprised that you believe God can't.
I'm not really sure how Hitler killing millions of innocent people, sometimes only after allowing his henchmen to do awful things to them in "the name of science" or just for fun, to be "giv(ing) beings an opportunity to experience conscious life with the ability to choose freely how they will use that opportunity."
I'll bet Jews, Rom and Slavs all could have had PLENTY of opportunity to experience conscious life with the ability to choose freely, without living in abject terror, wondering where the children who had been ripped from them were (hint, Mom: about a 90% chance they were gassed immediately...stop hoping) before they were used up for their work, then murdered.
I may be crazy but hear me out here: where was the ability to choose freely how they would use the opportunity to be worked into the ground before being killed?
What, they could choose how quickly or slowly they'd undereat on any given day?
I'm finding your answers a bit bizarre, Pleroo, and frighteningly free of human empathy.
Interesting ... because I haven't given any answers to the questions I've asked. I'm just asking. Sorry if that frightens you.
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I'm not the person you asked, but my answer is: hell yes! We parents do this every single day WITHOUT our children turning into "robots" without "choice" or "free will". If pitiful imperfect human parents can do it, then paint me rather surprised that you believe God can't.
Now, I'll ask you the same ... what amount of bad behavior would a benevolent god allow? In other words, what parameters would have to be put on free will in order for you to consider god benevolent (assuming that god could put parameters on free will)?
Oh, don't mind me. It surprises me that anybody could be quite that cold about the holocaust, but what can I say; we are all different, aren't we? I have rarely come across that clinically cold a dismissal of the grief, pain, horror and deaths of millions but you know, life is always providing new experiences, so I guess this was one for me.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
Now, I'll ask you the same ... what amount of bad behavior would a benevolent god allow? In other words, what parameters would have to be put on free will in order for you to consider god benevolent (assuming that god could put parameters on free will)?
I don't know. He's God - shouldn't he be better at this than I am? I mean good grief, let's hope. But I guess not...oh well?
With that said, as a parent, in my (human and supposedly far inferior) parameters I easily include "no, I'm not going to literally turn the other way and get my child killed rather than block him from doing Stupid Thing X". So no, I didn't give my toddler the "free will" to cross the street, as one example. He manage to find about a hundred other things of his own choosing (that weren't going to get him killed) anyway, go figure. And you know what's interesting? He learned from the vast majority of them. (That leaves the whole "but people would never learn if they had any limits" idea out, I guess. Sorry about that.)
On a less dramatic note, I give my children choices of what to eat for a snack. They can have granola in the hand or a granola bar, one of several different types of fruit, cut celery, a piece of toast, a piece of cheese or maybe a half-bowl of soup, to give some examples. I DON'T allow them either raw sugar spoon by spoon or rat poison as a snack. Right there are some limits, and a lot of choices. And beyond that, they have the choice to eat the snack or not. They have the choice of what time they want to eat the snack. And so on. The (non-lethal) choices just keep coming.
I also limit, as my children get older, just how dangerous a position they wish to be in. So for example, I likely would not give my child permission to ride his bike to Watts for that totally awesome party. Believe it or not, he could still have PLENTY of other choices on what to do with his night. Probably in the dozens at the very least.
Just three quick examples. Should be common sense but I guess nobody told the God of the Bible that you can give PLENTY of choice without allowing things like rape, murder or horrific accidents beyond someone's control.
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