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Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Often in these discussions, when it comes down to giving authority to the bible, we hear the words from believers, usually when they have no other discussion point to make, that the bible is "the inspired words of god".
How would one know? How would one test that hypothesis without using the bible as its own authority, as that is just a circular argument?
Some say one needs to let the spirit into one's heart? WTH? The heart is a muscle, with no thinking ability whatsoever. Yes, the ancients use to think it was the center of one's being, but we know that is wrong. And if that is a metaphorical statement, one can say anything else in the bible is metaphorical and allegorical, at best.
So, how do we KNOW that your god inspired the bible as it exists today?
Often in these discussions, when it comes down to giving authority to the bible, we hear the words from believers, usually when they have no other discussion point to make, that the bible is "the inspired words of god".
How would one know? How would one test that hypothesis without using the bible as its own authority, as that is just a circular argument?
Some say one needs to let the spirit into one's heart? WTH? The heart is a muscle, with no thinking ability whatsoever. Yes, the ancients use to think it was the center of one's being, but we know that is wrong. And if that is a metaphorical statement, one can say anything else in the bible is metaphorical and allegorical, at best.
So, how do we KNOW that your god inspired the bible as it exists today?
We believe what the individual books of the Bible attest to themselves, and other books. We read it and recognize that it is what it says it is. I'm firmly convinced Romans is an inspired work after spending a semester studying it -- recognizing that for a man in the 1st Century to write it and reference the OT as many times as he did, it's inspired.
Besides that, we can look at the inspired prophecies that came true. Psalm 22 was written about 1000 years before crucifixion, yet it describes crucifixion. We know that there were amazing details of Jesus' birth and his life that were predicted hundreds and thousands of years prior to his living.
I know...none of these will convince you. That's ok--it's not my job to argue you into belief.
Here's conversation I had with a Pentecostal guy while back.
How do you know it's true?
because it's in the Bible.
Ok, so how do you know Bible is correct?
Because it's given to us by god.
Ok, so how do you know it's given by god?
because it's in the Bible.
That's where you stop and give up.
Actually reminds me of a joke
Where to you get your cash from?
from a drawer in the chest
Who puts cash there?
My wife does.
Where she gets cash from?
I give it to her
Where you get cash from?
Already told you - from drawer in the chest.
Here's conversation I had with a Pentecostal guy while back.
How do you know it's true?
because it's in the Bible.
Ok, so how do you know Bible is correct?
Because it's given to us by god.
Ok, so how do you know it's given by god?
because it's in the Bible.
That's where you stop and give up.
Actually reminds me of a joke
Where to you get your cash from?
from a drawer in the chest
Who puts cash there?
My wife does.
Where she gets cash from?
I give it to her
Where you get cash from?
Already told you - from drawer in the chest.
You realize that not all Christians think that way, right?
Here's conversation I had with a Pentecostal guy while back.
How do you know it's true?
because it's in the Bible.
Ok, so how do you know Bible is correct?
Because it's given to us by god.
Ok, so how do you know it's given by god?
because it's in the Bible.
That's where you stop and give up.
Actually reminds me of a joke
Where to you get your cash from?
from a drawer in the chest
Who puts cash there?
My wife does.
Where she gets cash from?
I give it to her
Where you get cash from?
Already told you - from drawer in the chest.
Unlike you, who are obviously wise and sensible...they don't "stop and give up".
They keep it up...some, for years.
Indicative of their level of good sense and wisdom.
Inquire once, maybe twice...keep it up after that, it is rude, disrespectful, harassing and most of all foolish.
We believe what the individual books of the Bible attest to themselves, and other books. We read it and recognize that it is what it says it is. I'm firmly convinced Romans is an inspired work after spending a semester studying it -- recognizing that for a man in the 1st Century to write it and reference the OT as many times as he did, it's inspired.
Besides that, we can look at the inspired prophecies that came true. Psalm 22 was written about 1000 years before crucifixion, yet it describes crucifixion. We know that there were amazing details of Jesus' birth and his life that were predicted hundreds and thousands of years prior to his living.
I know...none of these will convince you. That's ok--it's not my job to argue you into belief.
Actually, as a pastor, that's precisely your job. :-)
We believe what the individual books of the Bible attest to themselves, and other books. We read it and recognize that it is what it says it is. I'm firmly convinced Romans is an inspired work after spending a semester studying it -- recognizing that for a man in the 1st Century to write it and reference the OT as many times as he did, it's inspired.
Besides that, we can look at the inspired prophecies that came true. Psalm 22 was written about 1000 years before crucifixion, yet it describes crucifixion. We know that there were amazing details of Jesus' birth and his life that were predicted hundreds and thousands of years prior to his living.
I know...none of these will convince you. That's ok--it's not my job to argue you into belief.
Could it be possible that Romans and the Gospels were written knowing what was "prophecied" in the OT and followed that narrative to look as if it came true?
I'm firmly convinced Romans is an inspired work after spending a semester studying it -- recognizing that for a man in the 1st Century to write it and reference the OT as many times as he did, it's inspired.
Romans claims Paul's authorship and Acts of the Apostles claims to include an objective and factual narrative of Paul's ministry.
Assuming for the sake of argument that Romand was written by Paul from prison, he was a Pharisee and would have committed key scriptures to memory. That is not extraordinary or unusual. And Paul was, for his day, an intellectual. So I see this as suggestive that Paul was an intelligent and diligent student of the OT which he was able to put to good use. That's a far cry from miraculous though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Besides that, we can look at the inspired prophecies that came true. Psalm 22 was written about 1000 years before crucifixion, yet it describes crucifixion. We know that there were amazing details of Jesus' birth and his life that were predicted hundreds and thousands of years prior to his living.
It says things that are not incompatible with Crucifixion. But it doesn't describe crucifixion and it can just as well be describing any other form of death or indeed existential crisis. It's describing the common human experience of feeling forsaken by god and man and the hope that somehow future experience will be different, thus justifying faith in either.
"All my bones are out of joint" for example can be literal or (far more likely in *ahem* context) figurative.
But we are pattern matching creatures and we look for matches and confirmation bias provides them. If the author is writing about bones being out of joint and being thirsty, he MUST be literal and he MUST be channeling the future words of Jesus, because god and prophecy and theology.
So I read Psalm 22 and see someone ranting about abandonment and suffering and hoping for some mercy and you read it and see a particular person describing a particular event, related much later in a particular document that for all we know was made up to FIT Psalm 22.
This is how all prophecy works. It's general enough to read into it or fit it in with whatever you want to. Not actually impressive at all.
Could it be possible that Romans and the Gospels were written knowing what was "prophecied" in the OT and followed that narrative to look as if it came true?
Perhaps. But consider that the apostle Paul wrote Romans in the 1st Century, without the aid of computers...I'm amazed by it. If you take the time to study it, it's an amazing piece of work.
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