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Declaring something to be "flawed" without actually moving to establish it actually is....
Here are some of the flaws in logic:
The belief that unless science can prove it, it is not true or real. The belief that unless a person can prove what they are saying, then they are making it up.
It appears the answers I am providing in response to the questions you asked, are causing you agitation and frustration.
Nope. Not in the slightest. In fact every time you reply to the tone of my posts rather than the content, you do so erroneously. But as I said I suspect your CONSTANT MO of moving from the content of the post to the tone of it is just your way of dodging replying to that content.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
The responses I have given seem to be not what you are looking for. We seem to be in the place of : you asked, I answered, you don't like my answers.
No, it is more a place of I asked, and you answered something entirely different. I asked if you have ANY basis for your comments about the after life and you simply have not offered any.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
I am intrigued to hear more about your views on free will.
I remain entirely open on the subject. I have just learned enough, especially from advancements in recent science, to not simply assume we have free will. For example even simple choices like reaching out to pick up a cup, or not pick up the cup..... when we put people under fmri scanners..... we see the choice is actually made at the level of the brain before we are consciously aware of making the choice.
And if your choices are made before you make them, how can we coherently discuss free will?
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
If you are not choosing what to say, or think, or believe, or feel....then who or what is doing those things for you?
Again an open question. But try this for me. Think of someone famous right now. Picture them, what they look like, and what they are famous for.
Now why did you NOT think of..... say..... Abraham Lincoln or Arnold Schwazenager. When I asked you to think of someone famous, what or who made the choice of who you thought of? You certainly didn't. The person that arose into your consciousness did so entirely out of your control. So how much choice DO you have over what you think?
As for what you feel, how much control do you have over that either. If you lose a child, do you CHOOSE to feel grief or not? Or does it just come? When you suffer from unrequited love for a close friend, can you just CHOOSE to stop loving them? PERHAPS you can start to argue that you have choice over what you DO with your feelings, though even then there is debate, but I can not see a coherent path towards arguing that you choose what to feel and when.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Here are some of the flaws in logic: The belief that unless science can prove it, it is not true or real.
I expressed no such position. So now in response to me asking you to show the flaws in logic in my position, you offer as an answer a position I never actually expressed? How is that logical? Or honest?
The simple fact is YOU espoused not just the claim that there IS an after life, but some very specific assertions as to what it is, how it works, and what it is like.
I merely asked, a straight forward and not complex question, as to what basis you have for the claims you made. And it appears behind the deflections you have offered, that your response is akin to the noise of crickets.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
The belief that unless a person can prove what they are saying, then they are making it up.
Still selling that one despite me correcting you on it already then? So you ignore my corrections and clarifications, and then sell the same error again. And you then think you can admonish people on treating others with respect? Try showing some yourself. Start by simply not ignoring what people say to you because it falls outside the narrative you want to invent for them.
I already told you that my position is that GIVEN you have offered no basis for your claims and GIVEN your claims go against what things we DO understand about the world and the human conditions...... you have given me no other avenue BUT to have the suspicion you are making it up (directly and/or vicariously).
while we are playing around with long winded posts:
I guess our life could be like a memory in your brain. Given the complexity difference in the universe vs. what we understand about our bran, the memory may be more vivid.
Since we really are just particles in a much larger sea of particles we would really need to start talking about what we are in the first place. "atoms" are not even exactly the same from micro second to micro second. We would have talking with more precision about what is "us".
I know when I take apart "you" I won't find "you" so we would have to address that issue.
The illusion of our lives might just be a thought in the first place but the complexity of the processor offers "existence" to that thought, or region, in that processor. maybe not.
The self awareness of my illusion is gone when I die. Your awareness of me at that time keeps going although its different.
My guess is that since we are not what we think we are, any guesses based on that illusion would be incomplete at best.
Remember "Illusion" is different than "delusion". Set the stage up correctly and I would run from a guy walking toward me with a tape recorder in his hand.
"something" is there. That's far more valid than any other take. "Personal meaning", well, I try and help people so I don't mess with that more than educating them about why they hold that personal opinion. Be it "strong anti- religion" or "strong My religion only". My experience is both are broken brains making something "real important" to it. we should find out why.
.... my position is that GIVEN you have offered no basis for your claims and GIVEN your claims go against what things we DO understand about the world and the human conditions...... you have given me no other avenue BUT to have the suspicion you are making it up (directly and/or vicariously).
And there is nothing "illogical" about that.
OK, we'll go with the flawed logic in that set of beliefs that you just stated above.
GIVEN you have offered no basis for your claims .
The basis for my views is the study and practical application of elements central to many wisdom traditions. I have validated and substantiated these views to myself through my own direct personal experience.
So the flaw in logic is, I have given you my basis for claims made. However it is not satisfactory to you. Why not? What to you is a valid "basis for claims?"
GIVEN your claims go against what things we DO understand about the world and the human conditions...... .
Correction, it goes against what YOU understand. Other people have no problem understanding. Lots of people understand lots of things that you do not. That is true for every one of us.
you have given me no other avenue BUT to have the suspicion you are making it up (directly and/or vicariously).
The flaws in this logic are that there are no other conclusions you can draw; and that people are making it up if your criteria are not satisfied.
(Part 1 of 2; I try to avoid long posts so am breaking it up)
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-11-2016 at 10:15 AM..
You have chosen beliefs and have painted yourself into a corner with those beliefs. If you are sincere in addressing or exploring them further, then it would be helpful to identify your beliefs in these areas, and you are correct they need to be in your own words. So fill in the blanks or modify the wording until it accurately reflects where you are currently holding:
"For me, a valid and satisfactory basis for claims made must meet these criteria: ____________"
"I reject considering anything outside these criteria because ___________"
"If experts can't agree on it, it is not valid."
"Trustworthy experts for me are:__________"
"I can't change my beliefs because:____________"
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-11-2016 at 10:36 AM..
The self awareness of my illusion is gone when I die. Your awareness of me at that time keeps going although its different.
Remember "Illusion" is different than "delusion". Set the stage up correctly and I would run from a guy walking toward me with a tape recorder in his hand.
Did I date myself with tape recorder?
Always good to read your posts Angel. I knew exactly what you meant by tape recorder but then we may be the same vintage
I would say that my awareness is greater after death, because in between lives, our awareness is of all our life times, and our goals and desire for soul growth are crystal clear. Whereas while my soul is in a physical body, the illusion is very strong that my body and brain are all there is, and many consider the existence of our soul a delusion.
Very useful to make the distinction between illusion and delusion. Thanks Arach
OK, we'll go with the flawed logic in that set of beliefs that you just stated above.
I wish you better look this time because it entirely failed last time.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
The basis for my views is the study and practical application of elements central to many wisdom traditions.
Just because the assumption is central to a tradition or traditions you are invested in, that does not offer a shred of basis for lending the claims and descriptions you have made any credence at all. I have asked you for the basis for the claims YOU have made, and instead of answering this you merely are essentially telling me "Well these people over here believe it".
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
I have validated and substantiated these views to myself through my own direct personal experience.
And let me venture a wild guess, that not just some but ALL of this validation and verification will be of a form that you can not, or will not, present a shred of it here in answer to my questions?
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
So the flaw in logic is, I have given you my basis for claims made.
Yes that is a flaw in logic then. YOUR logic. Because you are answering a question, yet again, that you were not actually asked.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
However it is not satisfactory to you. Why not? What to you is a valid "basis for claims?"
Any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning that you can offer that could lend a shred of credence to the claims you have espoused here would be nice.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
GIVEN your claims go against what things we DO understand about the world and the human conditions...... .
Correction, it goes against what YOU understand.
Your correction is false. Take for example human consciousness. While our understanding on human consciousness is indeed limited, it is not empty by far. Not 5% not 50% not 75%.... but 100% of what we understand about it so far links it inextricably to the brain. 0% of what we know or have evidenced so far shows ANY possibility or suggestion of a disconnect between the two.
THAT is what I mean when I say that not only are your claims themselves entirely unsubstantiated, but they go entirely against what substantiations we DO have about the workings of the universe. While NOT ONLY can you provide NO basis for expecting there to be an after life...... which is bad enough........ we can offer PLENTY of basis to actively expect there not to be.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
You have chosen beliefs and have painted yourself into a corner with those beliefs.
And once again, as time and time again before, when you shift to talking about ME rather than my content, you are simply wrong. I have not "chosen" any belief any time ever. I am COMPELLED to my beliefs by substantiation.
Perhaps YOUR ability to believe is so labile you can do so by choice, but I can not. So do not presume just because you do it, that I do too. I can not look at an empty box and simply CHOOSE to believe it stacked full of money. And I can not look at an empty claim..... devoid of any and all substantiation..... and simply CHOOSE to believe it.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
If you are sincere in addressing or exploring them further
Of the two of us, it is FAR from my sincerity that is the one in question here.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
you are correct they need to be in your own words.
And I am happy to keep using my own words. As such I will not be filling in the blanks on sentences YOU construct on my behalf. And I will certainly not be doing so to fulfil your pretense of a narrative that doing so will be indicative of sincerity. I am not a puppet dancing to your strings.
In my church there are about 100% of people know that they will go to God in the afterlife , as God is very much real there , God abides on His people and people sense His presence , but does not abide on people who are not His
Melody is a composite because it only exists as an identifiable composite sequence in a consciousness. It is really only separate notes. Dark chocolate almond bark!
Thanks for the response but honestly I have no idea what you are talking about. First you said 'existence is a composite' now you're saying 'melody is a composite'. A composite of what?
Composite means that something that is made up of parts or elements.
What is your 'melody' made up of?
What is your 'existence' made up of?
You can't say that something is a composite without saying what it is a composite of.
Honestly though Mystic I really don't mean to be rude at all but let's leave it there if you don't mind. I just don't have time for long conversations about this at the moment. Maybe I'll get back to you in a couple of weeks to get to the bottom of what you're talking about.
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