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No, I do not get to choose facts. The FACT is that there is no basis at this time for thinking we were "put" here, let alone with any intention or design in mind. If you are aware of such a basis for thinking this then by all means offer it, but you never have despite me asking you several times, and you running away from the question each time.
I do not "choose" my beliefs. Perhaps you do, but I do not. I am COMPELLED in belief by substantiation. If a claim is substantiated, I believe it. If it is not, I do not. There is no "choice" in this for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
because we are in a free will zone.
Not sure what you think you mean by that, but as I said before there is quite a division in the worlds of science and philosophy as to whether free will even exists, though you ran away from that conversation too.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
Much as the idea seems to irk you
Nope, but you do quite enjoy assigning emotions and tones to me I do not actually hold.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
we are responsible for and accountable for what we choose to believe.
Speak for yourself. You are not speaking for me. Belief for me is not a choice.
...I do not "choose" my beliefs... If a claim is substantiated, I believe it. If it is not, I do not. There is no "choice" in this for me....Belief for me is not a choice.
That is a belief you hold: "Belief for me is not a choice. I do not choose my beliefs."
Here is another belief you hold: "I am compelled in belief by substantiation."
However you and you alone (your choice, your definition, free will) define for yourself what constitutes "substantiation" for you. It is your belief for you what is substantiation.
It is not a "fact" what constitutes substantiation, because it varies widely by person and by context.
If your daughter tells you she was raped, her word may be substantiation for you.
In a court of law however there are different standards for substantiation.
Does it change the fact that she was raped? No.
What constitutes "substantiation" for you?
That is another belief you hold. "Substantiation for me is ________________."
What constitutes "substantiation" for you?
That is another belief you hold. "Substantiation for me is ________________."
Another person's "substantiation" may include personal experience. For instance Cruithne in an earlier post described an experience that for her (or him, not sure) is something distinct with regards to a dear departed person. It does not meet your criteria for substantiation so you reject it.
If I were to answer the fill in the blank for myself, I would say substantiation for me is through validation in my own personal experience, and reliable sources. Substantiation is not one size fits all.
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Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
No, I do not get to choose facts. ....
I do not "choose" my beliefs. ...There is no "choice" in this for me...Belief for me is not a choice.
how do you describe the difference between a belief and a fact?
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-20-2016 at 07:41 PM..
^ Thank you for telling me what my own beliefs are, even though I knew them already. You might be better off telling us your beliefs and the basis for them rather than going around presuming to tell others what THEIRS are.
Yes those are my beliefs, and they are substantiated beliefs which is why I hold them. Beliefs substantiated by years of self observation and data collection. And after years of this I can tell you that thus far I have been ENTIRELY incapable of CHOOSING to believe or not believe something.
However I note in your diatribe about what you think I believe and why..... you once again did not answer ANY of the things put to you, substantiate ANY of the things that came from you..... or even ONCE rebut the claim I made that there is nothing on offer (least of all from you) to suggest we were "put" here with any design or intent or purpose in mind.
Thank you for this lovely clear sparkling illumination of the truth of who we are. Even in the depths of her dementia, and even if it appeared otherwise, your mother was aware of every moment you were with her and all the care and love extended. May goodness and kindness follow you all the days of your life and beyond.
Thank you, Tzaphkiel. Yes, I think at times she knew she was being cared for. I am just glad she was comfortable and not in pain.
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Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
I have no doubt there is. But your reasons for wanting it have literally no bearing on A) Anything I said or B) the reality of whether you actually will or not.
There is however, on the topic of what this thread is about, absolutely no basis at this time for expecting that to actually happen. And no matter how much you might WANT it to be so, that will not make it so.
Thanks for stating the obvious without actually replying to anything I said. We both have our beliefs. The only difference appears to be that I have substantiation for mine. You do not.
That is a belief you hold: "Belief for me is not a choice. I do not choose my beliefs."
Here is another belief you hold: "I am compelled in belief by substantiation."
However you and you alone (your choice, your definition, free will) define for yourself what constitutes "substantiation" for you. It is your belief for you what is substantiation.
It is not a "fact" what constitutes substantiation, because it varies widely by person and by context.
If your daughter tells you she was raped, her word may be substantiation for you.
In a court of law however there are different standards for substantiation.
Does it change the fact that she was raped? No.
What constitutes "substantiation" for you?
That is another belief you hold. "Substantiation for me is ________________."
You are confusing beliefs with knowledge claims.
You are entitled to your own beliefs but not your own facts.
Some people can, if they wish, afford belief to things based on nothing more than that others do or have believed them, or that a religious or cultural tradition or writing asserts it, or that they have had an emotionally satisfying or compelling personal subjective experience that resonates with it, or even that they have a strong desire for the thing to be believable and true. These, as you point out, are, for some people, sometimes, considered by them to be good and sufficient substantiation, and to have adequate evidentiary standards. That doesn't make them compelling to one and all, however.
Unlike Nozz, I could at least at one time in my life just choose to believe something -- I clearly can, or I would not, at one time, have been a believer in the Christian god or afterlife concepts. But I can truthfully say that I never found those beliefs satisfying or compelling because they did not comport themselves with experienced reality -- mine, and what I observed of others responding to it. Ever. Even a little. So at some point it delivered way more cognitive dissonance to me than anything positive. And I found nothing in mysticism outside my religion of birth, that did not have exactly the same or worse defects.
What ends up happening for many people is that their beliefs are a leaky abstraction, but it doesn't leak too much, too often, provides a comfortable nest of rationalizations, and works well enough to meet or at least not much interfere with their social, mental and emotional needs. I am where I am today less because of an inability to believe in things like the supernatural, as that my rationalizations leaked too much, and I became wore out over the task of constantly propping up my rationalizations.
So for slightly different reasons than Nozz, perhaps, I have exactly the same inability to simply choose to believe something unless it is adequately demonstrated to be reasonably likely to be true. And he is correct in stating that there is nothing on offer from you to demonstrate that your beliefs are reasonably likely to be true. You can speak only of polling the teachings and opinions of various people that your particular religious tradition affords a status of sage, comparing the subjective experiences and ideas of people you feel are trustworthy, etc. It is, in short, not about demonstrated truthfulness, but rather, to borrow from Colbert, "truthiness" -- a personal subjective feeling that a thing should or must be true, and selectively giving attention to things that subjectively support it.
It is rather like a client of mine years ago said when confronted with major internal inconsistencies in the database his company was built around: "The data is the data -- it has its own integrity". You have accepted a dataset that is mostly not grounded entirely in reality and not very much substantiated because you are able to just go with it and like it. And that is fine.
But you still have not demonstrated that your chosen dataset is likely to actually be true. Only that it is -- for you and many others -- "truthy". Since anyone can declare any belief they want, and many do not feel particularly as though they have to support that belief, "truthiness" is a vanishingly low bar, such that to anyone with decent evidentiary standards and a fair grasp of how easily fooled the human mind is, it means exactly nothing.
No, I do not get to choose facts. The FACT is that there is no basis at this time for thinking we were "put" here, let alone with any intention or design in mind. If you are aware of such a basis for thinking this then by all means offer it...
It appears that how you view life is a "fact" while those who view life differently have "unsubstantiated claims"
There is ample basis for purpose, meaning, and design, some see this some do not, some experience this some do not.
What is the difference for you between a fact and a view?
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-21-2016 at 07:00 AM..
It appears that how you view life is a "fact" while those who view life differently have "unsubstantiated claims"
It appears that how you view this forum is a place to talk about the poster, without ever talking about their post.
Yea the difference very much is that when I make claims, and I am asked for the substantiation for that claim, I offer it. While when I ask YOU for the same.... you dodge, make personal comments about me, ignore the post entirely, or simply change the subject.
And that is telling.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
There is ample basis for purpose, meaning, and design, some see this some do not, some experience this some do not.
Ah the old "I will say there is a lot of it, but not say what ANY of it is" move. We get that one often around here. You have made a STRING of claims about the after life and other topics on this thread, I have asked you MULTIPLE times if you have any basis or substantiation to offer from those claims..... and it really is the sound of crickets I am getting in response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
What is the difference for you between a fact and a view?
For me at least, facts support views. Views do not support facts. Evidence is a process, not a thing, and the process is quite simple:
1) State clearly what your claim is.
2) State clearly what you think supports the claim made in 1).
3) Explain clearly how the things listed in 2) are support for the thing claimed in 1)
It most certainly is not:
1) Vaguely claim some stuff.
2) Deflect, dodge, ignore or misrepresent anyone who presumes to inquire further.
3) Change subject when opportunity presents.
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