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Lots of things are true that can't be proven to anyone else other than what the person knows, feels, experiences. Such as being in love, such as what a person finds inspiring, such as what is compelling, such as what you dreamed last night, such as your favorite food, such as who you trust or not. The list goes on and on. Those are true. Those are real. Those are not imaginary. And they can not be proven to anyone else. Or verified by anyone else. And yet you know them to be true for you in your life experience.
Do you believe a person needs a brain to think?
When you die and you no longer have a functioning brain, you shouldn't be able to think any more, right?
The argument is really this simply I think.
Yes, if one tries hard enough they may be able to find some novel theory about how thinking would go on without a brain. But you can see why a lot of people wouldn't buy it.
We need eyes to see, ears to hear, and a brain to think. When we die all of that breaks down and so we won't be able to see, hear, or think. That is a logic inference to be drawn from what we know about how the world works.
Do you believe a person needs a brain to think?
When you die and you no longer have a functioning brain, you shouldn't be able to think any more, right?
We need eyes to see, ears to hear, and a brain to think. When we die all of that breaks down and so we won't be able to see, hear, or think. That is a logic inference to be drawn from what we know about how the world works.
the soul has no physical form, it puts on the body and takes it off, just like you put on a coat and take it off. A coat can't move by itself. It is not alive. It is you inside the coat that makes it move.
the body can't move by itself. it is not alive unless there is a soul inside it that is moving the body around. when the soul leaves the body (death) the body is just a dead lifeless form. Just like the coat thrown on the floor of your closet is dead and lifeless. The brain and body and eyes can't think or move or see without the soul inside it.
The soul uses the body, including your brain and eyes and ears. Yes, those stop functioning at death because the soul has left the body. However the soul is not physical and continues to exist. The soul that is you continues to exist outside the body, just as you existed before you entered the body. You may put on many bodies over centuries of time (reincarnation) but the soul that is you is the same. Just like if you have 19 different coats in your closet, putting them on and taking them off doesn't change the you that is wearing them even though you look very different in different coats.
You are not your body. You are inside your body using it. Your soul is the you that is peering out through your eyes from inside your body. Smiling and enjoying this conversation immensely.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-23-2016 at 05:28 PM..
the soul has no physical form, it puts on the body and takes it off, just like you put on a coat and take it off. A coat can't move by itself. It is not alive. It is you inside the coat that makes it move.
the body can't move by itself. it is not alive unless there is a soul inside it that is moving the body around. when the soul leaves the body (death) the body returns to its inert lifeless form. The brain and body can't think or move without the soul inside it.
The soul uses the body, including your brain and eyes and ears. Yes, those stop functioning at death because the soul has left the body. Your soul is what gives you life. Your soul is the essence of who you are.
The soul is what makes you alive. It is the you inside the coat that makes it move.
Your logic is sound for the physical body. However the soul is not physical. The soul is the you that is inside the body that takes it on and off like a coat. In between life times the soul that is you continues to exist in a non-physical form in a plane of existence that is non-physical.
You are not your body. You are inside your body using it. Your soul is the you that is peering out through your eyes from inside your body.
So why doesn't it work that way when you are still alive?
If someone plucks out your eyes, your soul doesn't see without them. Do you believe a blind person suddenly gets vision again after he dies? But if his soul didn't need eyes to see, why couldn't a person that lost their eyes still see while they are alive, via their soul?
If you get Alzheimer, your soul doesn't remember your youth while you are still alive. If your soul doesn't require a brain to remember, why does Alzheimer affect the living? And why would you need the brain while you were living but suddenly not need it anymore when you die?
If you get a blow to your head you may have trouble controlling aggression - the soul doesn't seem to come into play at all.
If you have a soul that is sapient without a brain, why is brain damage so debilitating on the living?
Of course, the brain is necessary to create more of the consciousness that comprises the growing and developing entity we refer to as our Self. But we have little to go on regarding what such an entity IS or what it is capable of, except for our subjective sense of Self. We will not know until our brain's delayed link with it is terminated and we directly experience our Self at its actual level of being. We exist in a sub-light level of existence. Our real Self exists within an existential level equivalent with what we call the EM spectrum, though we cannot seem to measure it any more than we can measure dark energy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle
antenna in an em field. maybe. Thats oks for now. But maybe the radio is complex enough to be working using the pieces of the universe such that the the "antenna" and the "transmitter" are the same "thing".
The brain is a TRANSCEIVER, so it is both. It PRODUCES the SELF, but it is NOT the product. The product(Self) exists in a resonant neural field resident in the unified field that comprises our reality. We experience as a delayed playback everything including our sense of Self after it has been produced which makes us THINK we are the replay.
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Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
Do you have any reason to believe the "self" can survive and be conscious without a brain?
Being conscious IS the STATE OF BEING that comprises our real Self, Box. We experience its playback through the transceiver of our brain as a dynamic and fleeting state because it is a creative process of production over time. There is no reason whatsoever why its normal state absent the production process would be anything but conscious.
The brain is a TRANSCEIVER, so it is both. It PRODUCES the SELF, but it is NOT the product. The product(Self) exists in a resonant neural field resident in the unified field that comprises our reality. We experience as a delayed playback everything including our sense of Self after it has been produced which makes us THINK we are the replay.
Being conscious IS the STATE OF BEING that comprises our real Self, Box. We experience its playback through the transceiver of our brain as a dynamic and fleeting state because it is a creative process of production over time. There is no reason whatsoever why its normal state absent the production process would be anything but conscious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Of course, the brain is necessary to create more of the consciousness that comprises the growing and developing entity we refer to as our Self. But we have little to go on regarding what such an entity IS or what it is capable of, except for our subjective sense of Self. We will not know until our brain's delayed link with it is terminated and we directly experience our Self at its actual level of being. We exist in a sub-light level of existence. Our real Self exists within an existential level equivalent with what we call the EM spectrum, though we cannot seem to measure it any more than we can measure dark energy.
Let's try this again.
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Originally Posted by fishbrains
You are sliding an unproven assumption in here. You are presuming the existence of a Self independent of a brain, and your implication is that existed prior to the brain. In essence, the self is attracted to a brain, which then amplifies it.
But you still haven't proven the independent existence of a self.
Wouldn't Ockham's Razor favor consciousness being derived solely from the physical? Sure, maybe consciousness lags our physical experience, and maybe (probably) free will and individual identity are complete illusions. The logical conclusion then is that when the physical dies, the illusion of self does do as well.
I am going to address this EM-like vanity you have once more. You keep using this term, along with dark matter, to give your thoughts some sort of pseudo-scientific validity. But at the same time you admit that we cannot detect or measure your EM-like state in any way. That being the case, why should we think that it exists at all? Or that it has any of the characteristics of EM radiation?
At the basis of everything, you are still proposing something that you have no evidence for; being augmented by the physical, which you have no evidence for; then surviving the physical, which you have no evidence for; acting like something else, which you have no evidence for.
Any actual proof of your concept, or does it simply exist in an undetectable EM-like field with no describable properties?
The brain is a TRANSCEIVER, so it is both. It PRODUCES the SELF, but it is NOT the product. The product(Self) exists in a resonant neural field resident in the unified field that comprises our reality. We experience as a delayed playback everything including our sense of Self after it has been produced which makes us THINK we are the replay.
Being conscious IS the STATE OF BEING that comprises our real Self, Box. We experience its playback through the transceiver of our brain as a dynamic and fleeting state because it is a creative process of production over time. There is no reason whatsoever why its normal state absent the production process would be anything but conscious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
If you have a soul that is sapient without a brain, why is brain damage so debilitating on the living?
The brain is the only contact our Self (Soul) has with this sub-light level of existence. If you damage the transceiver in any way you corrupt or interfere with the contact, period.
The brain is the only contact our Self (Soul) has with this sub-light level of existence. If you damage the transceiver in any way you corrupt or interfere with the contact, period.
We can't reduce the brain to a transceiver, because we know it plays an important active role in thought. The mechanisms in some cases (though certainly not most) are now well understood. So, even if the brain has a secondary function as a transceiver, the brain is necessary for sentience when one is alive and there's no reason to think a brain would not be necessary for sentience just because one dies.
Death can be looked at as a complete form of brain damage, and the experience of death could logically be predicted as a total lack of any sentient activity.
Though there are admittedly many things about the brain that are not understood, and there always is at least a small chance that some processes could survive without a brain. Still that by far is not what the evidence we now have says is most likely. Based on what we now know, by far the most likely prediction is that no thought occurs when the brain is dead.
The brain is a TRANSCEIVER, so it is both. It PRODUCES the SELF, but it is NOT the product. The product(Self) exists in a resonant neural field resident in the unified field that comprises our reality. We experience as a delayed playback everything including our sense of Self after it has been produced which makes us THINK we are the replay.
the is no "neural field". Well, not one yet. the complex vibrations in our region of space is producing our brains traits.
The delay you are talking about is actually just a physical delay from the first potential starting to produce the thought to the many it builds up to so you become aware and or act on it. I guess you could back that down to the em fields and such too.
The "unity" of the field that you think you see is like looking at an ocean as one thing. It just an illusion from our perspective.
I hope you are showing people you are trying to sell the neural field too, the counter claims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Being conscious IS the STATE OF BEING that comprises our real Self, Box. We experience its playback through the transceiver of our brain as a dynamic and fleeting state because it is a creative process of production over time. There is no reason whatsoever why its normal state absent the production process would be anything but conscious.
If cake time is real you may be right. The dynamic and fleeting "state" claim is true, but we have to understand that nothing is the same from one instant to the next. The virtual/real symphony of energy fluctuations that makes us up and the region of space around this is complex enough to be the 'aware field" of yours, that's true enough too. But its a confluence of events, not a "fundamental neural field".
but either way. Your take or mine, It whats causing that feeling of connection people feel to the surroundings. Like a cell in you "feels" you, just less complex. I just wish the fundy-mental theifist left out the magic, fire, my god only. We also need the regulars not to follow the pathological people.
These takes also leave hard core atheist with only personal emotional needs to justify their stances anymore. just as run of the mill as any other in the end.
So why doesn't it work that way when you are still alive?
If someone plucks out your eyes, your soul doesn't see without them. Do you believe a blind person suddenly gets vision again after he dies? But if his soul didn't need eyes to see, why couldn't a person that lost their eyes still see while they are alive, via their soul?
If you get Alzheimer, your soul doesn't remember your youth while you are still alive. If your soul doesn't require a brain to remember, why does Alzheimer affect the living? And why would you need the brain while you were living but suddenly not need it anymore when you die?
If you get a blow to your head you may have trouble controlling aggression - the soul doesn't seem to come into play at all.
If you have a soul that is sapient without a brain, why is brain damage so debilitating on the living?
Because you are playing in more than one playground at the same tim and more than one level of awareness. You are complex and exciting in that regard.
The guy on the operating table is unconscious. He has been shot. They are performing surgery to try and save his life. Some days later he regains consciousness. He describes in minute detail the surgery, who was in the operating room, how many people and what they were wearing and what they looked like, and where they were in the room, and what they said and conversation they had, the instruments and equipment that were used and step by step what he observed watching the whole thing.
Did he see any of what was going on with his physical eyeballs? No he did not. The medical staff were fascinated with this of course. He described it from the vantage point of where was seeing it which was up near the ceiling.
That is an example of a portion of the soul leaving the body and seeing what is going on. This happens every night when you sleep. A portion of your soul leaves the body. The soul sees and hears and knows what is going on. It has full memory not just of this lifetime but of all your lifetimes. In this current lifetime we generally can not access this memory because it would interfere with our current life.
The blind guy you asked about can't see because his eyes are gone. The blind guy's soul of course can see because the soul never lost its sight. Was the guy in surgery seeing with his eyeballs? No the soul was seeing.
Good questions by the way. How refreshing when someone thinks and explores and simply wonders how does that work and what are implications.
It's like being an actor in a play. The actors take on a part and play it. After the play is over the actors sit around and maybe discuss what was it like being a blind guy.
Because you are playing in more than one playground at the same tim and more than one level of awareness. You are complex and exciting in that regard.
The guy on the operating table is unconscious. He has been shot. They are performing surgery to try and save his life. Some days later he regains consciousness. He describes in minute detail the surgery, who was in the operating room, how many people and what they were wearing and what they looked like, and where they were in the room, and what they said and conversation they had, the instruments and equipment that were used and step by step what he observed watching the whole thing.
Did he see any of what was going on with his physical eyeballs? No he did not. The medical staff were fascinated with this of course. He described it from the vantage point of where was seeing it which was up near the ceiling.
That is an example of a portion of the soul leaving the body and seeing what is going on. This happens every night when you sleep. A portion of your soul leaves the body. The soul sees and hears and knows what is going on. It has full memory not just of this lifetime but of all your lifetimes. In this current lifetime we generally can not access this memory because it would interfere with our current life.
The blind guy you asked about can't see because his eyes are gone. The blind guy's soul of course can see because the soul never lost its sight. Was the guy in surgery seeing with his eyeballs? No the soul was seeing.
Good questions by the way. How refreshing when someone thinks and explores and simply wonders how does that work and what are implications.
It's like being an actor in a play. The actors take on a part and play it. After the play is over the actors sit around and maybe discuss what was it like being a blind guy.
Gotta go.
More later
I tend to discount the operating room stories. I'm not sure there is a lot of hard evidence they are true.
But they also tend to ignore that we have a real good understanding of the way sight works, and if one did have some sort of sight with a soul our experience shouldn't be anything like the human experience of sight. Yet people always report seeing just like a human would see in that situation.
To recap, our eyes have rods and cones that are able to capture a specific portion of the range of electromagnetic energy around us, translate that into chemical energy in the eyes, send it up the optic nerve to the brain where it is translated.
For a soul to have sight it would have to somehow capture electromagnetic energy. But since the soul is transparent and it's not clear how it would capture the energy around us when light is able to pass right through it. At any rate, if it somehow did capture the waves, what are the odds that it would capture exactly the same spectrum of the electromagnetic range that the human rods and cones were built to capture? Why not more infrared or ultraviolet? Why would the experience of sight be the same as human sight when the processes are so different? Shouldn't they atleast be a little color blind or able to experience other colors or something?
It seems more likely to me that a person's brain is playing tricks on them in that situation - they are taking on information they learned after the fact and filling in some gaps. That's why an experience that should be so unlike a human experience if true tends to be reported just as if a human had seen it with their plain old human eyes. At least to me, that is a more plausible explaination than the soul leaving the body, which on so many different levels would require new rules of physics to explain.
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