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Everything that exists is some manifestation of the unified field that establishes our reality. Some of those energy manifestations are alive and some are dead. The energy in a rock or uranium is dead. The energy in living beings is alive. We do not know what causes the difference, but there IS a difference even though they are all manifestations of the same unified field. You seem to think they are comparable, but they are NOT.
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Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
Is the energy in my xbox live energy or dead energy? Is the electrochemical energy in my synapses live or dead? ... and why?
If you have not sensed the ridiculousness of your question, you are not really thinking clearly, Box. Is your X-Box alive????
But it works on a larger scale too, for example if you have someone rubbing you from behind and someone doing it to someone else in front of you. And you will start feeling the sensation in the person in front of you.
Nozz thanks but that's not an OBE. That's an example of a body transfer illusion.
OBE is an experience that typically involves a feeling of floating outside one's body and, in some cases, the feeling of perceiving one's physical body as if from a place outside one's body.
I had a neighbor who did this spontaneously all the time when she went to bed. She was terrified of the experience. I would love to learn how to induce an OBE, but I will settle for the fully Lucid Dreams that I am able to induce.
Nozz thanks but that's not an OBE. That's an example of a body transfer illusion.
Essentially it is the same thing, at the level of the brain.
At the level of the brain, the brain receives multiple inputs internally and externally about your position in the world. It can be visual as in where you see your arms and legs to be. It can be internal senses such as your sense of position and balance which come from, among other things, the inner ear. It can be the feedback from muscles after the brain sends a signal to them and they send a signal back (like in the Phantom Limb video I linked to). And so on.
And the brain amalgamates all these inputs to form an impression of your position in the world around you.
So things like OBE and the sensation I linked to above are essentiallythe same thing. Especially in the context of the point I was making to Fleet.
SOME number of the inputs go out of sync with the rest of the inputs, and the subjective experience of the subject is unusual as a result with some dissociation experienced between the actual position the person (or some part of the person) occupies..... and the position they experience occupying.
Now past the lay man stuff, sure there are deeper distinctions to be made at the level of the brain between transfer illusions and OBE..... but that is a deeper distinction than the lay people here require, would be interested in, or may even understand.
FUNCTIONALLY the point I am making to Fleet holds which is that the causes of OBE are mundane biological trivialities we can more than understand, we can reproduce artificially, and which support absolutely no supernatural or paranormal explanations.
And I have found it VERY useful in the past to illicit that experience of dissociating yourself from your own arm or body in people. They suddenly very clearly see how EASY it is to have such sensations, and it demystifies them.
And following the shock of that experience, which the majority of our species has never sat down to try and have, they are infinitely more amenable to discussions of more mundane and rational explanations for things like OBE.
Now past the lay man stuff, sure there are deeper distinctions to be made at the level of the brain between transfer illusions and OBE..... but that is a deeper distinction than the lay people here require, would be interested in, or may even understand.
Just like I told my Buddhist Monk friend once upon a time. I'm no layman.
I would be interested in hearing about those deeper distinctions.
The type of OBE's that I'm referring to are the ones like my neighbor had. She traveled around the Universe.
Just like I told my Buddhist Monk friend once upon a time. I'm no layman.
I never suggested you were. I mean the point I was making, in the context I was making it, to the people I was making it to. Fleet for example has demonstrably in the past shown a very cursory knowledge of neuro-science. So going into the deeper distinctions on the subject would A) be over whelming to him and B) be superfluous to the requirements of the point I was making to him.
And it pays, unlike certain mystics, not to bamboozle and lose your audience until such time as carrying the point you are making them requires that you do so. The deeper distinctions between OBE and other forms of bodily disassociation are simply over Fleets head due to the current level of his working knowledge of the subject, and NOT required to carry the point I was actually making to him. So I see no utility in hitting him with specifics that are not actually required for him to understand the point I was directing at him.
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Originally Posted by Matadora
I would be interested in hearing about those deeper distinctions.
It appears from your comments thus far that you are already aware of them without any assistance from me. But suffice to say that any level of dissociation from ones location, body, or body parts is in no way supportive of the After Life narratives people hang on the topics of OBE and NDE. We have a working and increasing knowledge of these things, none of which points to any ACTUAL disconnect between the brain.... and the consciousness, sentience, or subjective experience of the owner of that brain.
Ops I did not intend to imply that you had. What I meant was please feel free to go into those deeper distinctions with me as I don't walk among the laymen.
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Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
But suffice to say that any level of dissociation from ones location, body, or body parts is in no way supportive of the After Life narratives people hang on the topics of OBE and NDE.
I completely agree. In fact OBE, NDE and even the possibility of reincarnation, do not equate to anything religious IMO. It's simply how the Universe works. No woo involved nor need to invoke a god or attach a religious context to any of it.
Inspired is somewhat of a vague term, but if you mean "something that gives me new ideas", I know I am inspired by the presence of new ideas whenever that thing is around.
I know I am compelled to do something when I do it because a forceful reason is presented to me to do so. It may be a gun to my head, for example. I'm not trying to dodge your questions, but I don't really know what you are getting at.
What I am getting at is there are lots and lots of things that are true for you that you know through your own personal experience and through your own feelings. Favorite anything (books, music, art, food) evoke a feeling or experience in you that you know to be reliable and true for you. You can not prove these to anyone else. Nor is there any need to because they do not matter to anyone else. Same for what you dreamed last night, being in love, who you trust.
If someone said to you no, that is not your favorite music, no you really do trust that person, no you did not dream that last night, it is just your brain playing tricks on you, you have no evidence, it does not make sense, you can't prove it therefore it is not true.....
....what would your reaction be?
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-28-2016 at 07:12 AM..
Favorite anything (books, music, art, food) evoke a feeling or experience in you that you know to be reliable and true for you. You can not prove these to anyone else.
Not so sure that is true AT ALL actually.
For example if I said "this book is my favorite thing" I could substantiate that to you by putting us both under fMRI. I would then show you YOUR favorite thing, and show that certain areas of the brain light up. I could then show you things that are emotionally neutral to you and show those areas do NOT light up.
I could then show myself the thing I called my favorite thing and show that the SAME areas in my brain light up.
So there, job done. I have "proven" my subjective experience to you by illiciting the same experience in both of us, then showing that at the level of the brain the exact same things are happening.
It is not just the brain that we can scan in this too. There are other methodologies I could employ to substantiate what you are sitting there claiming I can not substantiate.
For example take Galvanic Skin Response (GSR). This is something we have little or no control over. After INTENSE training people can get SOME level of control over it to the level they can partially, but never 100% reliably, fool lie detectors.
But if a person you do not know walks past the window, there will be no GSR in you. If your mother walks past however, or the love of your life, there is a large leap in GSR.
So if I claim that some person or music or place or thing evokes a strong emotional response in me........... it is not true to claim I can not evidence the truth of that to you. I very much can. All you have to do is measure my GSR and bring on the music or object in question and you will instantly see that my claims are verifiable and verified.
So it is clear where you are going with this argument strain you are employing, but unfortunately for you the basis for it was false from the outset. You very much can substantiate the things you are sitting there asserting can not be substantiated.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
If someone said to you no, that is not your favorite music
Then, as above, I would merely invite them to measure my GSR and start playing all different kinds of music to me. They will find in the end that the GSR during my favorite piece of music is off the scale compared to any other piece they play.......... and they will be forced by facts to accept that my claim is true, and their own one false. They are very very unlikely to find any piece of music that will get the GSR from me that you will get if you play the last 18 to 19 minutes of Van Morrisons "into the Music" album. And if they CAN find music that will do it..... I will genuinely thank them for it.
If you have not sensed the ridiculousness of your question, you are not really thinking clearly, Box. Is your X-Box alive????
No, but no energy is "alive" in the sense that I use the word. So I'm trying to figure out how you are using the word.
Which kind of energy are alive and which kinds aren't? You gave me descriptions of objects before, I'm trying to figure out what makes some energy alive and others not alive, according to you.
If you have not sensed the ridiculousness of your question, you are not really thinking clearly, Box. Is your X-Box alive????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
No, but no energy is "alive" in the sense that I use the word. So I'm trying to figure out how you are using the word.
Which kind of energy are alive and which kinds aren't? You gave me descriptions of objects before, I'm trying to figure out what makes some energy alive and others not alive, according to you.
Then you have not grasped the essence of our reality, Box. You are operating on too narrow an understanding of energy. The energy we measure is just one of the myriad manifestations of the unified field that establishes our reality. Solid inorganic matter and organic life forms are the other forms of energy as are motion, momentum, etc. That is the implication of the energy/mass/momentum equivalence. Organic forms of energy are what we recognize as alive.
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